Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

Those with ears to hear, hear. To hear some speak, that means some have no ears at all. LOL

But it is not about the physical act of hearing. It is a spiritual issue.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And it means that some do have ears to hear spiritual things.

It's been addressed several times on this thread, but 1Cor2:14 is speaking in the context of hearing deeper spiritual things only mature Christians can understand. Not even immature Christians can yet understand them. The natural man has no chance of understanding them. It is not speaking about hearing and understanding that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[studier]

What choice did you make while you were dead and God made you alive?

Was that a rape of your will? Really?????

Your question presupposes a certain meaning of "dead" that goes beyond the Scripture in the view of those who do not agree with TULIP.

The metaphor was aggressive but simple. God does not force Himself on and take over unbelievers.

 

[Magenta]

And it means that some do have ears to hear spiritual things.

It's been addressed several times on this thread, but 1Cor2:14 is speaking in the context of hearing deeper spiritual things only mature Christians can understand. Not even immature Christians can yet understand them. The natural man has no chance of understanding them. It is not speaking about hearing and understanding that Jesus is the Christ.

That is certainly going beyond what is said in the text. It specifically
says the person without the Spirit. That is not immature Christians.
It is not any Christian at all.

 

[Magenta]

Your question presupposes a certain meaning of "dead" that goes beyond the Scripture in the view of those who do not agree with TULIP.

The metaphor was aggressive but simple. God does not force Himself on and take over unbelievers.

How does it go beyond what is meant? It does not. You were dead.
God made you alive. It has nothing to do with your stupid TULIP.

Why can you not accept what the text plainly states?

 

[studier]

That is certainly going beyond what is said in the text. It specifically
says the person without the Spirit. That is not immature Christians.
It is not any Christian at all.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
NKJ 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
(1 Cor. 2:6-3:3 NKJ)

This is not speaking of the foundational Gospel. It is speaking of the deep things of/from God that even "babes in Christs" - milk drinkers - cannot even be taught yet. Deep things from God concerning the things God has prepared for those who love Him. The things God had freely given to those who love Him.

The natural man has yet to even believe in Jesus Christ, so he has no chance of receiving/knowing them.

They are known only by mature Christians. When Paul says "spiritual" he's speaking of these mature Christians. It's not just that they have the Spirit, but are mature in Christ in Spirit. The babes in Christ are not yet Spiritual even though they are in Spirit. They're still drinking milk and acting fleshly.

 

[studier]

How does it go beyond what is meant? It does not. You were dead.
God made you alive. It has nothing to do with your stupid TULIP.

Why can you not accept what the text plainly states?

I agree that TULIP is wrong so it's not my "stupid TULIP".

This has been discussed quite extensively. So, can a [spiritually] dead human being understand that the eternal, powerful, divine God exists? Can a [spiritually] dead human being who understands God exists hear & understand the basic Good News of God's Son?

If you say no, then your understanding is explained in the TULIP doctrine.

I'll wait to see your thoughts are on what the Scripture I just posted and highlighted to see what you think the Text plainly states.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Does God making you alive while you were dead mean he raped your will? Such strange terminology .

The Bible in in multiple places tells us people are able to hear where they can audibly ""hear"" the Gospel, no matter what their spiritual identity is. They are able to hear it. So this is God opening ears. Even those who heard Stephen preach the Gospel [purposefully] shut their ears (that means they could hear the Gospel but decided to stop hearing it).

The fact is, anyone and everyone will "hear" the Gospel whenever it is preached.

And as they hear, they can receive it or stop their ears from hearing more.

So the [ACT] of being able to hear the Gospel preached is the only time God ""makes people"" hear in the process of salvation.

After that, we can stop our ears or receive the message.

Just like Jesus said, people will hear His words and either accept or reject them.

16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words <--- you can't reject unless you can first HEAR what to reject.

 

[selahsays]

God created ALL humans.
To think that when God speaks that a human cannot hear, Knowing that God knows how to speak to dead people, just shows the ignorance of some claiming to be Christian.

You got a scripture for this statement that “God knows how to speak to dead people”? Thx.

 

[selahsays]

Does God making you alive while you were dead mean he raped your will? Such strange terminology .

Please, folks …This topic is starting to lose all reverence for our Holy heavenly Father. Also, I see many erroneous presumptions and false premises being presented here. Let’s be careful not to offend the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[PaulThomson]

Real question and not an argument: Do you think that the Potter creates any men for dishonor or that all men choose their own dishonor?

An example from the honorable (conversely) side: Could John the Baptist be anything other than what God said He would be?

I sometimes wonder if much of our arguing is simply because we put God in the box of our own simplistic sensitivities and don't just let Him explain Himself in all of what He says and does in His perfect essence.

If you should ask, yes, I'm familiar with the reasonings of His hardening some - familiar but not fully accepting that we understand it all.

I see the "to make (poiEsai, aorist active infinitive)" in Rom. 9:21 as meaning "to designate", as it does when scripture talks of "making God a liar." (1 John1:9-10) God has the right to designate certain vessels worthy for honour, and others worthy for dishonour.
Verse 22 is pointing out that although God might be very frustrated with people who are behaving such that God designates them for dishonour at the moment, He is enduring with long-suffering those people, who are fitting themselves for destruction (katErtismena, perfect middle participle).
Verse 23, says God is withholding His wrath from them, so that at a future date (at the resurrection?), He might (hopefully) make known (ginOrisEi, aorist active subjunctive) the riches of His glory to some of those same people, which, after their repenting and putting faith in Christ, he had afterwards prepared (proEtoimasen, aorist active indicative) through discipleship for glory.

John the Baptist was probably very familiar with the story of Jonah. I suppose he could have thought of trying to avoid playing the role God had prepared him for, but he realise God could put him through horrendous experiences to force him to preach, and so played hia appointed role reluctantly and against his own will. Or he could have been brought up to look forward with eagerness to the coming of the Messiah and he could have willingly played his appointed role with enthusiasm.

I think God explains Himself well enough for His purposes. Do you have any theories on why God has chosen to communicate with us through ambiguous sentences and paragraphs that allow for various interpretations which Christians end up divided over ?

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Show me a biblical text where my definition does not apply: where a saviour does not rescue people from harm that they could not deliver themselves on their own.
Judges 3:15 calls Ehud a saviour (Greek: sOtEr).
Ehud saved the Israelites, but they contributed something to their salvation from the Moabites..

So...the people of God are able to take part in their deliverance. But when God used Moses, the people were told to be still to be delivered.
What about those who were raised from the dead? Did they contribute to their resurrection?
In your example, Ehud did the work of deliverance, and after called for a response from the people. This is the pattern in scripture. In Acts 2, God sends a messenger who employs the word, circumcises the hearts of some and calls for a response that evidences faith.
In your example, faith was evidenced by them fighting the enemy. With Moses, faith was exercised by being still. In Acts 2, faith was exercised by repentance and baptism.

Obviously, in some cases they could and did take part in their salvation/deliverance. Sometimes God said stand still. Sometimes His people were required to do something to be saved, like look at a bronze serpent. It's not an either/or option with God. Sometimes faith is evidenced with standing still. Sometimes it is evidenced with acting.. Obeying the command to stand still, is doing something.

 

[rogerg]

48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words <--- you can't reject unless you can first HEAR what to reject.

That is the whole point - they reject because they have not spiritual hearing/discernment to comprehend, receive and accept.
For that, one must have the Spirit; to have the Spirit one must be saved/born again. They hear, but only with the humanistic hearing of natural/unsaved man and with that hearing, the things of the Spirit (all the things of the Spirit) are foolishness.

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[PaulThomson]

They must be of His sheep in order to hear His voice.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They must be of His sheep to believe in Him.

[Jhn 10:26 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

IOW, to first be of His sheep is the prerequisite to everything else.

That's the negative inference fallacy you are relying on. It is unsound logically.

It is logically fallacious to determine that because one group does X, no one outside that group does X.

"All my sons are driving to Christchurch" does not mean no one else is driving to Christchurch.

Likewise, "All my sheep hear my voice" does not mean no one else hears my voice.

 

[PaulThomson]

The timing is the same because that's when the Shepherd is doing His work of finding. But being found and repenting are not the same thing. One is necessary for the other.

Being found is the term used in the imaginary parable, and repenting is the term used in Jesus commentary on the meaning of the parable applying the parable imagery to reality. Being found was not a term Jesus used in His commentary, describing reality, alongside repenting, as if they are two aspect of the reality of salvation. There was one aspect in the imaginary parable (being found) interpreted as repenting in the reality of salvation. Jesus does not say that the story is supposed to tell us that God does not know where we are, and has to go looking for us to find us and then bring us to repentance. He says the story is supposed to tell us that we wander away from the Lord and we remain lost and harassed like sheep without a shepherd., until we repent and turn our attention back to God. We are not supposed to take elements of a parable and import them directly into reality.

For instance we are not supposed to go looking for pearls until we find one that cost all we own, and then buy it, in order to have the kingdom of God. People don't bring real leaven into the church after which the whole church becomes corrupted. You are in error to take the elements of a parable and bring them uninterpreted into the reality the parable is about.

 

[HeIsHere]

Your question presupposes a certain meaning of "dead" that goes beyond the Scripture in the view of those who do not agree with TULIP.

The metaphor was aggressive but simple. God does not force Himself on and take over unbelievers.

Agree, this is eisegesis, adding to the meaning of the word.

"Dead" does not mean, has never meant, morally incapable of responding positively to the Gospel from birth.

Seems some people needed some extra death/inability cause born incapable is not sufficient, God had to make doubly sure. smh!

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
John 12:40

 

[Cameron143]

To be a Hearer one must be a Doer. Hear > Do = a Hearer.
The translated word can actually denote obedience.
Now slip in the Total Depravity model to complicate the simplicity.

A hearer is one who hears and understands. With understanding, one does. Without understanding, one rejects. We act upon the perception of our understanding. No one does before they think.

 

[Cameron143]

It clearly says that if you want to make it into that. Ask him to capitalize the h in "hearer" and it's clearer. Or stick with Total Depravity and don't assist but twist.

Nothing to do with any doctrine. We respond to stimuli. The collection of data is in the mind. How we understand the data results in action or inaction. It's just how God made us.

 

[Cameron143]

Why didn't they have a relationship with Christ?

21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21 NKJ).

Seems doing the Father's will is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.



Or maybe just a misunderstanding of what God says is not compensable work.

Being born from above is what places one in the kingdom.

 

[studier]

That is the whole point - they reject because they have not spiritual hearing/discernment to comprehend, receive and accept.
For that, one must have the Spirit; to have the Spirit one must be saved/born again. They hear, but only with the humanistic hearing of natural/unsaved man and with that hearing, the things of the Spirit (all the things of the Spirit) are foolishness.

That's the whole point made up when one inserts an errant theology into what the Word clearly says.

 

[Cameron143]

PaulThomson said:
Show me a biblical text where my definition does not apply: where a saviour does not rescue people from harm that they could not deliver themselves on their own.
Judges 3:15 calls Ehud a saviour (Greek: sOtEr).
Ehud saved the Israelites, but they contributed something to their salvation from the Moabites..



Obviously, in some cases they could and did take part in their salvation/deliverance. Sometimes God said stand still. Sometimes His people were required to do something to be saved, like look at a bronze serpent. It's not an either/or option with God. Sometimes faith is evidenced with standing still. Sometimes it is evidenced with acting.. Obeying the command to stand still, is doing something.

No. Faith is a response to what God says. They looked at the serpent because they believed what God said. Looking wasn't salvation. Looking was evidence they believed what God said.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Faith believes, and then responds.