Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

I find it difficult to have a discussion with you because from my vantage point you deflect from actually answering my questions. You broaden the discussion, and when I ask about something you add, you continue the same pattern.

Pot and kettle.

My questions weren't rhetorical. I would like to know what commandment you have kept in your own endeavor. I would like to know when you have actually loved God with all your mind, heart, and strength. I would like to know what you believe the commandment requires of an individual for it to be completely and perfectly kept.

Asked and answered.

If man is collaborating with God in salvation, salvation is not then of grace.

When one understands the full scope and process of Salvation, this thinking gets corrected.

Salvation is always by grace through faith. Every part of it. But this does not preclude Christian collaboration with God. It explains how the Christian can collaborate with God.

Faith is essentially if not actually never separate from obedience though faith and obedience can be separate from work. If I unknowingly or knowingly obey a command of God to believe what God tells me, then what work have I done? What wages does He owe me?

He is called to respond to this grace and does with obedience. But not until has drawn him, made known what Christ has done for him, and the Spirit circumcises his heart. Before such time, man is at enmity with God and a slave to sin.

In my view of Scripture, you're mixing things up and inserting some things you've not proven with Scripture. For the moment I'll set aside circumcision of heart until if and when you care to look at the concept in Scripture.

You're putting forth the traditional come to faith then obey God concept. It's not wrong IMO but it's only partially correct.

I'm going to respond to narrative with narrative until if and when you'd care to look at or put forth Scripture and just one or two at a time and not in the typical proof-texting way.

I see Paul and Hebrews at minimum making the case that faith is so vitally connected to obedience that it's used interchangeably.

I see God commanding men to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. So believing in Jesus Christ is [known or unknown] obedience to God.

In this light, I see in the Text that unbelieving men are not only to believe the Gospel but to obey the Gospel.

All of this is simply how the Text speaks. It doesn't accommodate our one level thinking but requires us to think more dimensionally and comparatively.

God's drawing is explained in context in John 6 as His teaching unbelieving men about His Son. And all Jesus says after referencing OC Scripture is that men who hear and learn from the Father will come to Him which in context is to believe in Him.

I see the enmity Paul speaks of as being specifically that of man under sin not being able to obey God's Law. This is not the God-Hating wanting to know nothing about God concept I'm reading in this thread. Nor is this saying unbelieving man has no ability nor desire to know about God who he has heard of or who He has understood from God's Creation and God making His existence clear to all men.

Any part of this or anything else you'd like to look at in Scripture, I may be agreeable to do. I have no idea how anyone here thinks they're making any case whatsoever apart from looking intently at Scripture together.

 

[selahsays]

Pot and kettle.



Asked and answered.



When one understands the full scope and process of Salvation, this thinking gets corrected.

Salvation is always by grace through faith. Every part of it. But this does not preclude Christian collaboration with God. It explains how the Christian can collaborate with God.

Faith is essentially if not actually never separate from obedience though faith and obedience can be separate from work. If I unknowingly or knowingly obey a command of God to believe what God tells me, then what work have I done? What wages does He owe me?



In my view of Scripture, you're mixing things up and inserting some things you've not proven with Scripture. For the moment I'll set aside circumcision of heart until if and when you care to look at the concept in Scripture.

You're putting forth the traditional come to faith then obey God concept. It's not wrong IMO but it's only partially correct.

I'm going to respond to narrative with narrative until if and when you'd care to look at or put forth Scripture and just one or two at a time and not in the typical proof-texting way.

I see Paul and Hebrews at minimum making the case that faith is so vitally connected to obedience that it's used interchangeably.

I see God commanding men to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. So believing in Jesus Christ is [known or unknown] obedience to God.

In this light, I see in the Text that unbelieving men are not only to believe the Gospel but to obey the Gospel.

All of this is simply how the Text speaks. It doesn't accommodate our one level thinking but requires us to think more dimensionally and comparatively.

God's drawing is explained in context in John 6 as His teaching unbelieving men about His Son. And all Jesus says after referencing OC Scripture is that men who hear and learn from the Father will come to Him which in context is to believe in Him.

I see the enmity Paul speaks of as being specifically that of man under sin not being able to obey God's Law. This is not the God-Hating wanting to know nothing about God concept I'm reading in this thread. Nor is this saying unbelieving man has no ability nor desire to know about God who he has heard of or who He has understood from God's Creation and God making His existence clear to all men.

Any part of this or anything else you'd like to look at in Scripture, I may be agreeable to do. I have no idea how anyone here thinks they're making any case whatsoever apart from looking intently at Scripture together.

To what extent does faith correspond with obedience? Isn't faith more about trusting anf having confidence in God?

 

[Cameron143]

Pot and kettle.



Asked and answered.



When one understands the full scope and process of Salvation, this thinking gets corrected.

Salvation is always by grace through faith. Every part of it. But this does not preclude Christian collaboration with God. It explains how the Christian can collaborate with God.

Faith is essentially if not actually never separate from obedience though faith and obedience can be separate from work. If I unknowingly or knowingly obey a command of God to believe what God tells me, then what work have I done? What wages does He owe me?



In my view of Scripture, you're mixing things up and inserting some things you've not proven with Scripture. For the moment I'll set aside circumcision of heart until if and when you care to look at the concept in Scripture.

You're putting forth the traditional come to faith then obey God concept. It's not wrong IMO but it's only partially correct.

I'm going to respond to narrative with narrative until if and when you'd care to look at or put forth Scripture and just one or two at a time and not in the typical proof-texting way.

I see Paul and Hebrews at minimum making the case that faith is so vitally connected to obedience that it's used interchangeably.

I see God commanding men to believe in His Son Jesus Christ. So believing in Jesus Christ is [known or unknown] obedience to God.

In this light, I see in the Text that unbelieving men are not only to believe the Gospel but to obey the Gospel.

All of this is simply how the Text speaks. It doesn't accommodate our one level thinking but requires us to think more dimensionally and comparatively.

God's drawing is explained in context in John 6 as His teaching unbelieving men about His Son. And all Jesus says after referencing OC Scripture is that men who hear and learn from the Father will come to Him which in context is to believe in Him.

I see the enmity Paul speaks of as being specifically that of man under sin not being able to obey God's Law. This is not the God-Hating wanting to know nothing about God concept I'm reading in this thread. Nor is this saying unbelieving man has no ability nor desire to know about God who he has heard of or who He has understood from God's Creation and God making His existence clear to all men.

Any part of this or anything else you'd like to look at in Scripture, I may be agreeable to do. I have no idea how anyone here thinks they're making any case whatsoever apart from looking intently at Scripture together.

This is my point. You did not answer the questions. How about just one: what is required of an individual to keep the command to love God with all their mind, heart and strength? What must one do?

And I can appreciate that it may be difficult to discourse with me. I appreciate your longsuffering.

 

[studier]

To what extent does faith correspond with obedience? Isn't faith more about trusting anf having confidence in God?

As I said, in Romans and Hebrews faith and obedience are used in parallel, so they're basically equated to one another. Also, we're told (commanded) to believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel, which again is just faith and obedience being equated.

Let's look at it this way: If we believe God is God and Christ is Christ (to whom all authority in Heaven and on earth was given) - then how do we really believe who He is if we do not submit ourselves in obedience to Him?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

If they could 'extricate themselves' then about 12 Dozen Plain and Clear
Passages would Also be false!, eh?:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!

Only for the elect.

Makes perfect sense, since the NON-elect Never had salvation to extricate themselves from, eh?

Amen.

 

[MerSee]

This is my point. You did not answer the questions. How about just one: what is required of an individual to keep the command to love God with all their mind, heart and strength? What must one do?

And I can appreciate that it may be difficult to discourse with me. I appreciate your longsuffering.

OBEDIENCE.

 

[PaulThomson]

If you believe that Christ is the Saviour, then it must follow that you also believe He alone saves apart from any of our actions.

Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.

 

[studier]

This is my point. You did not answer the questions. How about just one: what is required of an individual to keep the command to love God with all their mind, heart and strength? What must one do?

And I can appreciate that it may be difficult to discourse with me. I appreciate your longsuffering.

Firstly, since it's commanded, we must believe and obey and they are not separable.

37 Jesus said to him, "`You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. (Matt. 22:37-38 NKJ)​

Secondly, love for God is obeying God:

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 Jn. 5:3 NKJ)​

​

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. (Jn. 14:21-24 NKJ)​

​

Thirdly, there is no love for God if we don't love neighbor and Christian siblings:

31 "And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mk. 12:31 NKJ)​

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. (1 Jn. 5:2 NKJ)​

​

20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. (1 Jn. 4:20-21 NKJ)​

Fourthly, forecasting what you may ask: Can we do this apart from being in Christ in Spirit? No.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live [in the] Spirit, let us also walk (command to walk in line with someone or something considered to be the standard for one's conduct, follow, conform to) [in the] Spirit. (Gal. 5:22-25 NKJ)​

 

[Cameron143]

Firstly, since it's commanded, we must believe and obey and they are not separable.

37 Jesus said to him, "`You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. (Matt. 22:37-38 NKJ)​

Secondly, love for God is obeying God:

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 Jn. 5:3 NKJ)​

​

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. (Jn. 14:21-24 NKJ)​

​

Thirdly, there is no love for God if we don't love neighbor and Christian siblings:

31 "And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mk. 12:31 NKJ)​

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. (1 Jn. 5:2 NKJ)​

​

20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. (1 Jn. 4:20-21 NKJ)​

Fourthly, forecasting what you may ask: Can we do this apart from being in Christ in Spirit? No.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live [in the] Spirit, let us also walk (command to walk in line with someone or something considered to be the standard for one's conduct, follow, conform to) [in the] Spirit. (Gal. 5:22-25 NKJ)​

You still haven't told me what the requirements are. In other words, what will one be doing if they are keeping the commandment? What actions will be exhibited and in what manner? And how does one know they have done everything necessary to fulfill the commandment? And how can we do so both fully and constantly?
You have merely told the commandments are. You haven't told me how to do them.

 

[rogerg]

Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.

Because the correct analogy would be that you are already dead, not drowning, which everyone before being saved is.
A spiritually dead person cannot assist with being saved - is unable to grab the rope. And as the verses below show, we are spiritually dead until and unless God gives to us spiritual life. Notice also, that there is nothing that happens between being dead and being made alive except for God's direct intervention: from dead directly to alive

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[PaulThomson]

Name one commandment you have kept in your own endeavor. When have you ever loved God with all your heart, mind, and strength? What is actually required of an individual to keep this commandment?

There is no commandment I have kept without God's help. And there is no commandment I have broken without God's help. In Him we live and move and have our being, He gives us all breath and strength and nous which we abuse to do wrong and use to do good. Can you name one thing you do without you doing anything towards the performance of that deed, including believing in Christ?

 

[studier]

You still haven't told me what the requirements are. In other words, what will one be doing if they are keeping the commandment? What actions will be exhibited and in what manner? And how does one know they have done everything necessary to fulfill the commandment? And how can we do so both fully and constantly?
You have merely told the commandments are. You haven't told me how to do them.

Why don't you just tell me what you think and see if I agree with you or not?

Actually I have told you, but you're seeking something specific and reading past much of what I tell you.

To love God we must obey God we must believe in God we must believe in Christ, we must be born again/from above, we must obey Christ, we must be in Christ, we must remain in Christ (and not desert Him and fall from grace which is part and parcel with His command to remain in Him), we must grow in the grace and experiential knowledge of Christ, and so on and so on. Since love is obedience and obedience is faith then we have much to learn, believe and to do.

Now, if I know Cameron, and I did not put this in the above for a reason, then I'd add that in our rebirth we must be given a new heart to go with His Spirit He puts in us.

Your turn and no more questions.

 

[Cameron143]

There is no commandment I have kept without God's help. And there is no commandment I have broken without God's help. In Him we live and move and have our being, He gives us all breath and strength and nous which we abuse to do wrong and use to do good. Can you name one thing you do without you doing anything towards the performance of that deed, including believing in Christ?

Super. So finish answering the questions. What is entailed in keeping the first commandment. What is required in the commandment? How do you know if you have kept the commandment? What did you do to keep it? Did you do it to its fullest? Have you done so constantly?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Jesus didn’t die to save a few. He died to save all. Christ dying for the ungodly is a proof of Love immeasurable. Jesus died for those who bitterly hate Him.
That’s Love!
Romans 5:8

 

[Cameron143]

Why don't you just tell me what you think and see if I agree with you or not?

Actually I have told you, but you're seeking something specific and reading past much of what I tell you.

To love God we must obey God we must believe in God we must believe in Christ, we must be born again/from above, we must obey Christ, we must be in Christ, we must remain in Christ (and not desert Him and fall from grace which is part and parcel with His command to remain in Him), we must grow in the grace and experiential knowledge of Christ, and so on and so on. Since love is obedience and obedience is faith then we have much to learn, believe and to do.

Now, if I know Cameron, and I did not put this in the above for a reason, then I'd add that in our rebirth we must be given a new heart to go with His Spirit He puts in us.

Your turn and no more questions.

You have told me that keeping the commandments requires obedience. Fair enough. What does obedience look like?

If I tell my kids to keep their rooms clean, I also tell them what that entails...make your bed, vacuum the floor, empty the garage, etc. In this way, they can keep my commandment. What is required to keep the first commandment?

 

[MerSee]

You have told me that keeping the commandments requires obedience. Fair enough. What does obedience look like?

If I tell my kids to keep their rooms clean, I also tell them what that entails...make your bed, vacuum the floor, empty the garage, etc. In this way, they can keep my commandment. What is required to keep the first commandment?

You know exactly what obedience means.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Why does this follow? If I am drowning and a woman throws me a rope and I grab it and she drags me to a boat and to safety, how does my grabbing the rope, by which I cooperated with her, make her no longer my saviour? Please explain.

Because the correct analogy would be that you are already dead, not drowning, which everyone before being saved is.
A spiritually dead person cannot assist with being saved - is unable to grab the rope. And as the verses below show, we are spiritually dead until and unless God gives to us spiritual life. Notice also, that there is nothing that happens between being dead and being made alive except for God's direct intervention: from dead directly to alive

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You didn't answer the question... again.

Is the woman my saviour from drowning, despite my grabbing the rope to be saved? You claimed that if you do anything towards your own rescue, then the rescuer is no longer your saviour. Are you willing to admit that you were wrong. on that point?

Let's imagine I was dead and someone pulled me from the water without any cooperation from me, but while I was coming back to consciousness after CPR and mouth to mouth, I hallucinated that I had grabbed a rope thrown to me in order to be saved, and I was convinced that my hallucination was real. Would I not be truly rescued because I believed I had done somethinga as minor as grabbing a rope tossed to me? Would the rescuer be insulted that I thought I had contributed in some small way to my own rescue? What kind of person would my rescuer be to be so offended that I did not give them every gram of credit for my rescue, and so threw me into a furnace in their rage?

 

[Cameron143]

You know exactly what obedience means.

You don't seem to. But show me I'm wrong. Tell me all that is entailed in keeping the first commandment.

 

[PaulThomson]

Super. So finish answering the questions. What is entailed in keeping the first commandment. What is required in the commandment? How do you know if you have kept the commandment? What did you do to keep it? Did you do it to its fullest? Have you done so constantly?

To love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. No one except Jesus has kept that commandment perfectly all the time, which is why we need a Saviour to free us from guilt over failing to do so. But you can know when you are keeping it, whenever God's will and pleasure are your prime concerns.

And your point is?

BTW, I note here that you did not answer my question.... again.

 

[studier]

You have told me that keeping the commandments requires obedience. Fair enough. What does obedience look like?

If I tell my kids to keep their rooms clean, I also tell them what that entails...make your bed, vacuum the floor, empty the garage, etc. In this way, they can keep my commandment. What is required to keep the first commandment?

Your turn and no more questions.