Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

How can you possibly not understand. Explain to me what the vendor means when He tells you, "All the apples in this tray are good," but all but one unique Granny Smith have some degree of corruption.

And explain to me what you mean when you say to him, "Why do you call that one you gave me good? There is none good, not one except the Granny Smith."

And explain to me how one can assert that a partially bruise apple is "good for nothing".

If you try to explain those, you couldn't help but understand my point.

But so far, you refuse to dialogue. You seem to only want to fight with and preach at people.

When Jesus asked the man, "Why do you call me good", what do you think Jesus was getting at? What was the reason for Jesus asking that man that kind of question?

Also, can any "bruised or blemished" human beings dwell with God in heaven? If so, chapter and verse, please.

 

[MerSee]

Then I'll ask you the same question. Can you give another example where someone understands something and believes it to be accurate and true, but also considers it foolishness?

Edward Alexander Crowley

 

[studier]

So, you are saying that the unregenerate CAN believe the gospel truths but doing so will not save him. Somehow he believes something he himself also considers foolishness. Can you give an example of something else a person can believe to be accurate and true, but they can at the same time also consider foolishness?

Biden occupies the Oval Office.

Sorry, I digress.

As I understand what @Cameron143 said:

It's not. I've clearly stated that man can understand the gospel truth. He can also believe they are in fact accurate and true. But they will be foolishness to him as he is predisposed as a result of sin to reject them.

Just for clarification, CAN understand the gospel.

• [Fallen] man:
  • CAN - is able - to understand the Gospel Truth.
  • CAN - is able - to believe the Gospel Truth is in fact accurate and true.
  • Will reject the Gospel Truth as foolishness because he is predisposed to as a result of sin

This kind of sounds to me like he CAN but he CAN'T. A contradiction.

So, if I took one of your statements above and slightly adjusted, it would be: Somehow he believes CAN believe something he himself also considers foolishness.

Is this what you're getting at?

Irrespective of my digression, CAN a [fallen] Greek settled into the culture of the power of human reasoning believe the Gospel he reasons to be foolishness? (Thus He CAN but he CAN'T?)

CAN a [fallen] Greek with some degree of humility (for example) believe the Gospel because he does not consider it to be foolishness? (Thus he CAN?)

Does the ability (CAN) to understand and believe reside in fallen man. (Back to the basic question of the thread?)

cc: @MerSee

 

[Rufus]

Mr. Studier, sir, I have found the posts to my New Birth Analogy argument. They are: 1869, 2053 and 3539.

After you get done reading those, and assuming you will find 2,000 reasons why the Greek language doesn't support any of it, I have come up with an additional passage that very strongly supports my argument in 3539.

 

[rogerg]

I know a fair degree about who Jesus Christ is and what He's done for us and about who sent Him and who He loved and praised in ways mostly skipped over now because of phrases like Faith Alone in Christ Alone. I don't read the Text presupposing the mantras of men and I'm not stuck on the silly concepts against works they've made up. I just gave you a works verse related to our SALVATION. I can ask you more about things like this. But you'll have no answers until you let the Text speak so you can better understand things like Paul's teaching against "works of Law".

There is no answer besides Christ - eternal life resides only in Him and is Him. If someone has Christ, they then have eternal life, yet no one can give it to themselves, no matter they work for it. So, by your post, you've made evident that you have no comprehension of what Saviour means even though you claim otherwise. Instead, you invalidate the title, turning it against itself in demanding that works be added to His sacrifice in that you believe He alone was unable to achieve all for which He was sent-forth. And by so doing, you've called God a liar. At this point, I am done.

[1Jo 5:10-11 KJV]
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

[PaulThomson]

Read Romans 1. People can know something to be true; yet at the same time become futile in their thinking -- in their CARNAL minds and rationalize the truth away. Easy peasy...

Post the part of Romans 1 that you think is saying that people can believe something is accurate and true and also think it is foolish. I was actually asking for something in secular life that one can believe is accurate and true but also consider foolish.

 

[Rufus]

Biden occupies the Oval Office.

Sorry, I digress.

As I understand what @Cameron143 said:

• [Fallen] man:
  • CAN - is able - to understand the Gospel Truth.
  • CAN - is able - to believe the Gospel Truth is in fact accurate and true.
  • Will reject the Gospel Truth as foolishness because he is predisposed to as a result of sin

This kind of sounds to me like he CAN but he CAN'T. A contradiction.

So, if I took one of your statements above and slightly adjusted, it would be: Somehow he believes CAN believe something he himself also considers foolishness.

Is this what you're getting at?

Irrespective of my digression, CAN a [fallen] Greek settled into the culture of the power of human reasoning believe the Gospel he reasons to be foolishness? (Thus He CAN but he CAN'T?)

CAN a [fallen] Greek with some degree of humility (for example) believe the Gospel because he does not consider it to be foolishness? (Thus he CAN?)

Does the ability (CAN) to understand and believe reside in fallen man. (Back to the basic question of the thread?)

No, not a contradiction. But another paradox! Scripture is loaded with those. To the unregenerate, the Gospel is bitter water which he cannot swallow; therefore, because the unregenerate are self-deceived, they project unto God's holy truth what is actually coursing through their own depraved hearts! The Gospel is sweet and good water, whereas the the hearts of men are filled with wickedness and self-deceitfulness continuously.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

ive been reading pages of these posts and trying to figure out where to “jump in”,

It's somewhat disingenuous to answer questions with questions, and then to complain that your interlocutor holds off answering your second- and third- and fourth-tier questions until you answer his original questions.

Some one is placed into Christ when they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that Christ raised Him from the dead. Rom 10

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
James 2:19

“Suddenly, a man in the synagogue who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, "Why are you interfering with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are — the Holy One of God!"”
Mark 1:23,24

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21-23

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”
John 10:26

“And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”
John 10:16

It seems to me that many who believe they are christians, who make confession with their mouth of Christ and say they are “in Christ” will be turned away, Clearly Jesus knows his sheep and to them is it given to be “in Christ” yet somehow the general consensus among the body of Christ is that they decide if they will be “in christ” and they imagine that anyone on planet earth can be there own God despising the election preordained by the sovereign God before the foundation of the world. Why does “the church” teach doctrine that stands contrary to what God declared through the prophets? Why does “the church” hold fast to prophetic events that dont align with what the prophets spoke concerning the end of the age and of the new heavens and the new earth? I keep seeing theological assertions that stand opposed to the ministry of Christ and of his disciples?

 

[Rufus]

Post the part of Romans 1 that you think is saying that people can believe something is accurate and true and also think it is foolish. I was actually asking for something in secular life that one can believe is accurate and true but also consider foolish.

Men willing suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. Notice the text doesn't say, they disbelieved the truth -- but they SUPPRESSED it! Why? Because they did not want to retain God in their knowledge! Makes sense to me. Why would naturally born God-haters want to retain him in their knowledge?

 

[selahsays]

Those “in Christ“ have eternal life. They were justified before the foundation of the world. Simple.

 

[studier]

Professing Christians?

I don't recall seeing any indication of "professing" in Galatians. If you know of one I'll look at it with you.

I'm taking "professing" as being false Christians assuming that's what you mean. And I do think a discussion about potentially false believers is one to be had re: Galatians because of John 6 and those "disciples" who were following Jesus and walked away (literally says walked away backwards or something similar) when He got into eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

The verse that comes to mind in this "professing Christians" concept is: 16 They profess/confess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Tit. 1:16-2:1 NKJ)

It normally comes to mind because "abominable" can also be translated as "disgusting". Point being it's an intense statement and Paul is certainly mindful of such people. But I don't see it in Galatians as pertaining to Christians he's addressing. He does however most certainly have an equally and even more intense mindset toward the false gospel preachers and wishes them a slip of their knives.

 

[studier]

Those “in Christ“ have eternal life. They were justified before the foundation of the world. Simple.

On a certain level, it does seem so. And some rest there as enough said. Some don't.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

Men willing suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. Notice the text doesn't say, they disbelieved the truth -- but they SUPPRESSED it! Why? Because they did not want to retain God in their knowledge! Makes sense to me. Why would naturally born God-haters want to retain him in their knowledge?

This describes the judaizers who stood against christ and perfectly describes those occupying the Holy Land who say they are Judeans but are not and do lie, who are of the synagogue of Satan, openly flying the flag bearing the occult 6 sided star of Remphan

 

[Cameron143]

Post the part of Romans 1 that you think is saying that people can believe something is accurate and true and also think it is foolish. I was actually asking for something in secular life that one can believe is accurate and true but also consider foolish.

Suppose I tell my son to wear goggles while using the weed-eater. Later I see him using the weed-eater without wearing goggles. He understood the request and the reason for it. He could even consent that the reason for wearing the goggles was for safety. Why did he not wear the goggles?

 

[Rufus]

I don't recall seeing any indication of "professing" in Galatians. If you know of one I'll look at it with you.

I'm taking "professing" as being false Christians assuming that's what you mean. And I do think a discussion about potentially false believers is one to be had re: Galatians because of John 6 and those "disciples" who were following Jesus and walked away (literally says walked away backwards or something similar) when He got into eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

The verse that comes to mind in this "professing Christians" concept is: 16 They profess/confess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. (Tit. 1:16-2:1 NKJ)

It normally comes to mind because "abominable" can also be translated as "disgusting". Point being it's an intense statement and Paul is certainly mindful of such people. But I don't see it in Galatians as pertaining to Christians he's addressing. He does however most certainly have an equally and even more intense mindset toward the false gospel preachers and wishes them a slip of their knives.

Just because Paul was writing to Christians doesn't mean that each and every person which read the letter was one. Paul was well aware of the depravity of men's hearts; but unlike Christ, he did not know what was in every man's heart.

And, yes, Paul was certainly mindful of the overt God-haters, the openly hostile ones; but would he actually know who the more quiet, covert types were?

Are you going to deny that even today, the Church of Christ is filled with tares and wheat? The Church is loaded every Sunday (and often on Saturdays as well ) with pew warmers in addition to the faithful.

 

[Iconoclast]

for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names are not written in The Book of Life?

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb

Jesus died a Covenant death for all the elect children the Father gave to Him.
Heb.2:
2 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


All those given come to Jesus...no more, no less

 

[studier]

It seems to me that many who believe they are christians, who make confession with their mouth of Christ and say they are “in Christ” will be turned away, Clearly Jesus knows his sheep and to them is it given to be “in Christ” yet somehow the general consensus among the body of Christ is that they decide if they will be “in christ” and they imagine that anyone on planet earth can be there own God despising the election preordained by the sovereign God before the foundation of the world

IOW, why don't some men accept TULIP theology?

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”

So His sheep believe. Isn't the discussion you've been reading in part as to whether or not men under sin have the faculties to understand and believe some level of spiritual truth?

“And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:16

Same question.

I have no issue with the fact that there will be some who call Him Lord but He will turn them away. The discussion IMO has not been about such things. Your sheep references are a good one though and I think I recall some others discussing this along the way a is quite typical when discussing the TULIP topic.

You mention "to them it is given to be in Christ". I do agree with this FWIW, but the question is once again the process in which this giving takes place. Your language draws me back to John 6 unless you had something else in mind.

 

[studier]

Just because Paul was writing to Christians doesn't mean that each and every person which read the letter was one. Paul was well aware of the depravity of men's hearts; but unlike Christ, he did not know what was in every man's heart.

And, yes, Paul was certainly mindful of the overt God-haters, the openly hostile ones; but would he actually know who the more quiet, covert types were?

Are you going to deny that even today, the Church of Christ is filled with tares and wheat? The Church is loaded every Sunday (and often on Saturdays as well ) with pew warmers in addition to the faithful.

You've been out a bit, but @Cameron143 and I already discussed this (link to part where I posted context re: who Paul is addressing) to some degree, or at least I attempted to discuss it and get an answer as to whether the main "fear" Paul had was that Christians - those he considered to be "in Christ" - would desert and fall from grace.

From there the discussion was taken into the "in Christ" phrase and is still being discussed to some degree, I think.

Would you think I would deny the tares and the wheat teaching?

 

[studier]

Mr. Studier, sir, I have found the posts to my New Birth Analogy argument. They are: 1869, 2053 and 3539.

After you get done reading those, and assuming you will find 2,000 reasons why the Greek language doesn't support any of it, I have come up with an additional passage that very strongly supports my argument in 3539.

You're funny. Even English doesn't seem to support much of what I'm reading around here! I've hardly had to refer to the original language. And I doubt you'd accept even 2,000 reasons

Will take a look. Long thread, huh?

 

[studier]

There is no answer besides Christ - eternal life resides only in Him and is Him. If someone has Christ, they then have eternal life, yet no one can give it to themselves, no matter they work for it. So, by your post, you've made evident that you have no comprehension of what Saviour means even though you claim otherwise. Instead, you invalidate the title, turning it against itself in demanding that works be added to His sacrifice in that you believe He alone was unable to achieve all for which He was sent-forth. And by so doing, you've called God a liar. At this point, I am done.

[1Jo 5:10-11 KJV]
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

You do realize you asked me about the Savior and I gave you Scripture to show that our Father is also referred to as the Savior, correct?

Do you seriously think our Lord will be offended that I see both He and our Father to be Savior because that's what He - the Word of God - has had written?

If you'd like to turn this over now from Savior to eternal life, try these words from Jesus about eternal life: 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

• Faith Alone in Christ Alone?

As I said, a really great exercise is to sit quietly and read the Gospels with a strict focus on how Jesus glorifies our Father in so many places and in so many was. The mutual glorification in the Godhead is really quite beautiful. What Jesus says made me sit back many years ago and just meditate (cc: @Rufus so you know I also do this) on His relationship with our Father and how He as our first-born brother (Rom8:29) reveals this to us.

Don't forget our Heavenly Father @rogerg