Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Someone before compared circumcision of the heart to the removal of the veil from the temple. There wasn't just a small hole punched in the curtain - it was torn from top to bottom. Likewise, I don't think the scriptures would have been so emphatic on removing the inhibitive barrier (i.e. the foreskin) during circumcision, if all that was required was just a prick.
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Always ready to listen or read to a point and until I see it conflicting with Scripture. Reading further in this post I'm happy to take a look at your theory as long as it is based upon and uses Scripture. If you get the time and can point me to what you've written, I'll take a look.
I'm sure you've reflected upon your redefining the word "regenerate" which normally refers to being born from above/again. My caution with reading you is that I think you begin at a place I disagree with (TD or RTD and the remaining letters) and that you do not participate deeply enough in discussions that analyze Scripture in context.
From a presupposition, assuming error, which I think you have, then with an erroneous presupposition, as you well know, everything must work with it. Meditations with a presupposition can just be a discipline of eisegetical pondering. There's no solid building on an erroneous foundation.
So, if you're going to point me to a theory based upon a typology of pregnancy to apply to Cornelius, then, as I said, I'll want to see Scripture to support it and I'll be doing the same as I have been doing, and even more focused from here on in dealing with any Scripture you present.
I'm also going to ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say in order to turn them into statements like this. Having faculties that can understand spiritual things to a degree is far from saying the unregenerate are godly and God lovers. This is a cheap shot and we'll need to hold one another to a higher level of discussion and respect if we're going to continue.
I'm sure you've reflected upon your redefining the word "regenerate" which normally refers to being born from above/again. My caution with reading you is that I think you begin at a place I disagree with (TD or RTD and the remaining letters) and that you do not participate deeply enough in discussions that analyze Scripture in context.
From a presupposition, assuming error, which I think you have, then with an erroneous presupposition, as you well know, everything must work with it. Meditations with a presupposition can just be a discipline of eisegetical pondering. There's no solid building on an erroneous foundation.
So, if you're going to point me to a theory based upon a typology of pregnancy to apply to Cornelius, then, as I said, I'll want to see Scripture to support it and I'll be doing the same as I have been doing, and even more focused from here on in dealing with any Scripture you present.
I'm also going to ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say in order to turn them into statements like this. Having faculties that can understand spiritual things to a degree is far from saying the unregenerate are godly and God lovers. This is a cheap shot and we'll need to hold one another to a higher level of discussion and respect if we're going to continue.
NKJ Galatians 5:1 Stand fast (Command) therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage (Command). 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Based upon what you said above, how do you read this Scripture - what did Paul mean by the highlighted phrases?
Based upon what you said above, how do you read this Scripture - what did Paul mean by the highlighted phrases?
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Thank you for clarifying, and yes, I understand, however, my question went beyond the scope of that
due to other things you've said, which is why I wonder if you believe the natural man who is a slave
to sin and hostile toward God can of his own "free will" choose to believe in God without God having
moved first in some way such as being made alive in Christ and/or having one's heart circumcized?
1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
Thank you for the inspiration .
due to other things you've said, which is why I wonder if you believe the natural man who is a slave
to sin and hostile toward God can of his own "free will" choose to believe in God without God having
moved first in some way such as being made alive in Christ and/or having one's heart circumcized?
1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
Thank you for the inspiration .
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Thank you for clarifying, and yes, I understand, however, my question went beyond the scope of that
due to other things you've said, which is why I wonder if you believe the natural man who is a slave
to sin and hostile toward God can of his own "free will" choose to believe in God without God having
moved first in some way such as being made alive in Christ and/or having one's heart circumcized?
1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
Thank you for the inspiration .
due to other things you've said, which is why I wonder if you believe the natural man who is a slave
to sin and hostile toward God can of his own "free will" choose to believe in God without God having
moved first in some way such as being made alive in Christ and/or having one's heart circumcized?
1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
Thank you for the inspiration .
I don't think Arminianism is the only alternative.
I don't pay much attention anymore to any isms based upon men's interpretive traditions.
I do think God moves first and is primary in everything in bringing us back to Himself and that Salvation is His Plan, not ours.
I think ungodly men have the faculties to believe certain spiritual truth and to choose what they want to accept as truth and that there is a lot of deception they can also accept for internal or external reasons.
I don't think believing and having faith are different in regard to the faculties in men. They only become different when we invest them with certain meanings.
I think "works" salvation has become extremely overblown in an aggressive pendulum swing against the actual justification by works teaching in the Bible and that way too much is called works salvation that is not that.
I think circumcision of heart for the Christian is according to Rom2:9 and Col2:11 and needs to consider the active command in Deut10:16 and the circumcision of heart done by YHWH in Deut30:6. IOW, it's an area to be discussed by Scripture apart from taking peoples' word based upon their belief aka their faith however it became their belief/faith.
What I mainly think is that all of what we think needs to conform to the mind of Christ - the Word - the Scriptures - which I often refer to as the Text (capital T).
If you'd like to know anything else, please do ask. If you'd like to look at any Scripture in regard to any of this, please do bring it up.
FWIW, I learned some time ago how difficult it can be to change my thinking about something I was taught was Biblical. I also have watched others enter into such struggle and turn back to what they came from for various reasons and knowing they were taught a systematic theology but not really taught the Text. IMO if it's not the Text, then what are we left with? The Spirit and the Word do not disagree with one another, no matter who and how many tell us the Spirit told or taught the something (from the Text).
IOW prove something to me from a level of depth from the Text and I'm your new best friend whether you want one or not.
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Why is it that calvinists seem to almost always cite Bible verse references and claim they say X, but are so often averse to posting the actual verse? And when they do, it's usually only the parts of verses that seem to agree with their claims. It's almost as though they are afraid to speak the actual scriptures. Its the same tactic satan used in tempting Jesus: cherry-picking parts of texts out of context.
Not a good sign - you're obviously having memory lapses. I posted two verses -actual scripture - in their entirety. Did you miss them, not understand them, or are you just trying to corrupt their meaning because they invalidate your beliefs? I'll post them again and add another one for good measure - they're so simple, straightforward, and clear, that I can't imagine you would even think to argue with them.
[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian... nor a works for salvationist. I do not believe Romans 2:9 is about Christians. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger. <= it is about those people in the preceding verse who have rejected the Truth. I need to go out... but I will end by saying we were dead in our trespasses and sins when God made us alive in Christ. See you later!
If someone gets circumcised, they are trusting in the law, and not in Christ. So how does Jesus profit them? Christ is accessed by faith in Him.
You can see this all the time on this site. Get saved by grace...now keep the law. This is the evidence that they never believed. They never stopped relating to God on the basis of the law. They never actually placed their trust in Christ. They were never saved.
In 1 John 2:19 we find John telling of people who left the community of believers. He offers that their leaving is evidence that they were not of us. The implication is that they were never saved. It's interesting that even an Apostle did not know this until they actually left. So it is possible for tares to grow with the wheat undetected.
You can see this all the time on this site. Get saved by grace...now keep the law. This is the evidence that they never believed. They never stopped relating to God on the basis of the law. They never actually placed their trust in Christ. They were never saved.
In 1 John 2:19 we find John telling of people who left the community of believers. He offers that their leaving is evidence that they were not of us. The implication is that they were never saved. It's interesting that even an Apostle did not know this until they actually left. So it is possible for tares to grow with the wheat undetected.
Nope. You should pay better attention. I agree that men has retained all his faculties. And that they are corrupted. So he can believe things and understand things. I also believe man knows of the existence of God both by creation and conscience. Further, he can understand the gospel. But while he understands all these things, he is disinclined to accept them. Like Adam post sin, he turns away from God. The natural man has enmity towards God, and he is slave to sin. According to Ephesians 2:1-3, he is dead, being dominated, and doomed. Thankfully, verse 4...but God...like Underdog, rushes in to save the day. On God's behalf, you're welcome.
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rogerg said:
Their inheritance is reserved in heaven. The faith spoken of Peter 1:5 is Christ's faith, not their faith.
It is through His perfect faith that their inheritance is kept for them.
PaulThomson said:
Why is it that calvinists seem to almost always cite Bible verse references and claim they say X, but are so often averse to posting the actual verse? And when they do, it's usually only the parts of verses that seem to agree with their claims. It's almost as though they are afraid to speak the actual scriptures. Its the same tactic satan used in tempting Jesus: cherry-picking parts of texts out of context.
But I don't see where it says in 1 Peter 1:3-5 that the faith is Christ's faith. You smuggled that into the text, citing only the reference, without showing where it is stated in the text.
Their inheritance is reserved in heaven. The faith spoken of Peter 1:5 is Christ's faith, not their faith.
It is through His perfect faith that their inheritance is kept for them.
PaulThomson said:
Why is it that calvinists seem to almost always cite Bible verse references and claim they say X, but are so often averse to posting the actual verse? And when they do, it's usually only the parts of verses that seem to agree with their claims. It's almost as though they are afraid to speak the actual scriptures. Its the same tactic satan used in tempting Jesus: cherry-picking parts of texts out of context.
But I don't see where it says in 1 Peter 1:3-5 that the faith is Christ's faith. You smuggled that into the text, citing only the reference, without showing where it is stated in the text.
PaulThomson said:
Did you just admit here that all men do have an innate faith faculty? but you believe that that faculty. in every case. has been corrupted to the point of not being able to believe those gospel truths that produce justification?
Isn't that what I just described as your belief? If not, what are you disagreeing with in my characterisation of your position?
Did you just admit here that all men do have an innate faith faculty? but you believe that that faculty. in every case. has been corrupted to the point of not being able to believe those gospel truths that produce justification?
Isn't that what I just described as your belief? If not, what are you disagreeing with in my characterisation of your position?
Did you read the verse?
Here:
[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Do you see the "kept by the power of God through faith"? If it wasn't Christ's faith but instead a person's, then it would have to say
"kept by the power of man through faith" because it would be by man, not God - but it says being kept by the power of God through (His, Christ's) faith. Man is kept by God's power which was manifested through His faith - the faith of Christ. Got it?
Here:
[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Do you see the "kept by the power of God through faith"? If it wasn't Christ's faith but instead a person's, then it would have to say
"kept by the power of man through faith" because it would be by man, not God - but it says being kept by the power of God through (His, Christ's) faith. Man is kept by God's power which was manifested through His faith - the faith of Christ. Got it?
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