Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Magenta]

I argued that "Without faith it is impossible to please God" does not mean "all those who displease God are without faith".

Hebrews 11:6

 

[PaulThomson]

But you did say:


And it was in response to a post about Adam and Eve.

I suppose the issue is about where we place our faith, and in whom/Whom.

Exactly. Until we are presented with Christ by hearing the gospel, we cannot put our faith IN HIM. But once we hear the gospel, we have a new potential Object of our native faith that we can focus our faith upon, if we choose to do so. We don't need to be given faith. We need to be presented with a saving focus for the faith we already have.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, to me it is somewhat inconceivable that people kick and scream against the necessity of God moving first.
And to have them liken it to being kidnapped against one's will, saying that the Scriptural truth that God moves
first means He is an unjust tyrant, and makes God's offer of repentance fraudulent, and that therefore repentance
never actually occurs... yeah, those things are so far-fetched to associate with God moving first, since He makes us
alive in Christ while we were yet sinners... He rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the
kingdom of His beloved Son... I guess I will never understand why some believe what they do against what the
Bible actually teaches, when they claim to be believers. Their vehemence against Scriptural Truths baffles.

I understand their arguments. They have different doctrine concerning God. It starts with their understanding of God as love. The idea is that a loving God is obligated to exercise love to all humankind. And in one sense He does. He is gracious and merciful to all. But they extend it to mean that God must at least offer salvation to all. And while this can be easily demonstrated not to be the case throughout the history of mankind, they cannot conceive of a God of love who doesn't. Notwithstanding that God is equally just, holy, and sovereign as He is loving. So in a sense, at least from my understanding, they favor one attribute of God and hold it in higher esteem than others. From there, if one attribute is given greater merit over others, it must somehow influence the actions of God to a greater extent.

 

[PaulThomson]

I said, "Without sight it is impossible to read this text, does not mean that all people who cannot read this text have no sight."

Someone being able to hear this text being read via a text to speech programme, or a computer reading the text without having sight, does not affect the validity of the underlying logical syllogism.

Does, "Flowers don't have faith, but nevertheless they please God," disprove "Without faith it is impossible to please God"?
I argued that "Without faith it is impossible to please God" does not mean "all those who displease God are without faith". I did not argue that "Without sight it is impossible to read this text" means "it is impossible for this text to be read by anything without eyes."
Nor did I argue that Without faith it is impossible to please God" means "It is impossible for God to be pleased by anything without faith."

Maybe you could address my actual argument, rather than try to muddy the waters to hide the facts.

I see logic puts you to sleep. That would account for the whacky ideas you read into scripture.

 

[studier]

No. Man has faith in a variety of things. But not in Christ. What man lost was his ability to discern things the way he originally could.

Why did Adam and Eve cover themselves and hide after sin, but never before?

Why did God give the Seed of the Woman promise in Gen3:15 if nobody could have Faith in God that He would fulfill His promise?

Why did God have Moses speak of the Prophet greater than Moses if nobody could have Faith in His arrival?

Why did God promise David a descendent who would be the King of an eternal Davidic dynasty if nobody could have Faith in God that God would fulfill His promise?

Why did God proceed down through history providing more and more information about Messiah who would come if nobody could have Faith that He would come?

Why does Hebrews 11 go down through ancient history speaking of the Faith people had in God?

Why does Jesus speak of Faith in the Father who sent Him as a qualifier for eternal life (John 5:24)?

Why were men at the time of Jesus being on earth debating whether or not Jesus was Messiah if men could not have Faith in the promised Messiah - YHWH's Moshiach/Messiah/Anointed/Christ per Psalm 2 that Paul used to evangelize men if men could not have Faith in His coming?

Etc.

 

[studier]

But you did say:


And it was in response to a post about Adam and Eve.

I suppose the issue is about where we place our faith, and in whom/Whom.

Sorry. I was speaking mainly about Abel after Adam since Hebrews makes it clear that Abel had Faith.

I think your supposition is correct.

 

[Cameron143]

Why did God give the Seed of the Woman promise in Gen3:15 if nobody could have Faith in God that He would fulfill His promise?

Why did God have Moses speak of the Prophet greater than Moses if nobody could have Faith in His arrival?

Why did God promise David a descendent who would be the King of an eternal Davidic dynasty if nobody could have Faith in God that God would fulfill His promise?

Why did God proceed down through history providing more and more information about Messiah who would come if nobody could have Faith that He would come?

Why does Hebrews 11 go down through ancient history speaking of the Faith people had in God?

Why does Jesus speak of Faith in the Father who sent Him as a qualifier for eternal life (John 5:24)?

Why were men at the time of Jesus being on earth debating whether or not Jesus was Messiah if men could not have Faith in the promised Messiah - YHWH's Moshiach/Messiah/Anointed/Christ per Psalm 2 that Paul used to evangelize men if men could not have Faith in His coming?

Etc.

I asked you a question. You don't answer my question which was designed to answer your return questions. So if you will, please answer my question and we can begin to answer your questions.
What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?

 

[Magenta]

Exactly. Until we are presented with Christ by hearing the gospel, we cannot put our faith IN HIM.
But once we hear the gospel, we have a new potential Object of our native faith that we can focus
our faith upon, if we choose to do so. We don't need to be given faith. We need to be presented with
a saving focus for the faith we already have.

How do uncircumcised ears hear the gospel message?

 

[studier]

Exactly. Until we are presented with Christ by hearing the gospel, we cannot put our faith IN HIM. But once we hear the gospel, we have a new potential Object of our native faith that we can focus our faith upon, if we choose to do so. We don't need to be given faith. We need to be presented with a saving focus for the faith we already have.

This is important IMO and I agree with you. I'm not proposing to explain to you, but to piggyback on your post.

Most of the debate at the time of Jesus was not about having Faith in a Messiah, but whether Jesus was Messiah to have Faith in.

The foundation of Paul's Gospel was Jesus is the Christ (1Cor3:11, Acts18:5, Acts13:16-41). The issue was, Is Jesus Messiah? Paul's foundational message was that Jesus is Messiah.

Faith is a word that can be used subjectively or objectively as you say. It is to believe or it can be the content we believe (The Faith - The Gospel). What God gave us was His Son in whom we have Faith. Jesus is therefore the content of our Faith. In this sense God could be seen as giving us Faith because He gave us the content for us to have saving Faith in.

Good post!

 

[studier]

I asked you a question. You don't answer my question which was designed to answer your return questions. So if you will, please answer my question and we can begin to answer your questions.
What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?

Adam transgressed and sin entered the world. Sin and spiritual death - separation from God happened.

Why is this basic information re: the fall so important to you to flush out? Haven't we already done so with the discussion about sin affecting man?

Your turn. Between my questions to you and @PaulThomson and my response to him, it will be interesting to see how you respond.

 

[PaulThomson]

How do uncircumcised ears hear the gospel message?

Their owner takes out their fingers.

 

[Niki7]

Can a man escape a traffic violation because he is ignorant of the law?

Well no

A blind man should not be driving

 

[Cameron143]

Adam transgressed and sin entered the world. Sin and spiritual death - separation from God happened.

Why is this basic information re: the fall so important to you to flush out? Haven't we already done so with the discussion about sin affecting man?

Your turn. Between my questions to you and @PaulThomson and my response to him, it will be interesting to see how you respond.

If you believe that all that occurred was separation then this explains the differences we have.
The reason we know something more happened in man is due to the responses of Adam and Eve. If nothing changed in them, why did their responses to God change? Why did they experience fear and shame after sin but never before? Why did they hide and cover themselves? Did these responses come from God? Why did God shed an animal's blood? Why was there a need for an alternate covering? Why was there a need for a covering at all?

 

[PaulThomson]

What actually occurred in Adam and Eve when they sinned? Why did they only hide from God and cover themselves after sin and not before? God certainly hadn't changed. What changed in man?

Adam and Eve experienced guilt and shame and so came a sense of distance between them and the holy One.

 

[Niki7]

It's an odd way to phrase the responsibility of man before God. God doesn't require man to understand. He requires man to do all that is in His word.

robots anyone? now let's look at what scripture says about understanding

here are a few verses

Making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2: 2-5

Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. Proverbs 3: 13-18

And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, Colossians 1:9

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. I John 5:20

Those are just a few. Seems understanding has a place in our...understanding...after all

 

[Cameron143]

Adam and Eve experienced guilt and shame and so came a sense of distance between them and the holy One.

That's it? Nothing changed inwardly to produce these changes?

 

[Cameron143]

robots anyone? now let's look at what scripture says about understanding

here are a few verses

Making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2: 2-5

Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. Proverbs 3: 13-18

And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, Colossians 1:9

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. I John 5:20

Those are just a few. Seems understanding has a place in our...understanding...after all

Sure. Believers can hear and understand God.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Adam and Eve experienced guilt and shame and so came a sense of distance between them and the holy One.

That's it? Nothing changed inwardly to produce these changes?

What does scripture say? Does it say something else besides guilt and shame happened inwardly to produce guilt and shame?

 

[Magenta]

Their owner takes out their fingers.

Is hearing to you solely a physical attribute and not one of understanding?

So that when someone says, I see what you mean, they are seeing something with their eyes?

Or, I hear you, means, they simply heard what was said? Or do they mean they heard with a level of comprehension...

 

[Niki7]

Sure. Believers can hear and understand God.

it was about wisdom. why do you try to divert from what you said and what I answered? of course you would be a believer to ask for wisdom BUT you said:

It's an odd way to phrase the responsibility of man before God. God doesn't require man to understand. He requires man to do all that is in His word.

You stated God does not require us to understand

that is divergent from the truth. God WANTS us to understand and gain wisdom

smh