Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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studier

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They cannot "receive" - that is the whole point behind those verses.
They cannot receive what Paul is discussing in context. Nor can the immature Christian receive it. And what Paul is discussing in context is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ that men must believe in order to enter into life in Christ in Spirit.

There is nothing here that says unregenerate man cannot receive that evangelistic message. If they cannot, then it must come from other Scripture.
 

rogerg

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Well, firstly, your use of 2Cor2:14-17 is questionable, but maybe you can explain it.
self-explanatory.

Next, in 1Cor2:14 there is no talk of something like there is in John12:40 where God had hardened men's hearts and did signs which could be a witness against them,
Is it God who blinds or satan?

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Next, and it looks like @PaulThomson has addressed this already, this sense of justice is just odd and it is one of the main arguments constantly made against the Calvinist interpretive model.
Not sure which you are referring to but if it has to do with them being blind, I would refer you to the following verse.

[Jhn 9:41 KJV] 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
 

rogerg

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They cannot receive what Paul is discussing in context. Nor can the immature Christian receive it. And what Paul is discussing in context is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ that men must believe in order to enter into life in Christ in Spirit.

There is nothing here that says unregenerate man cannot receive that evangelistic message. If they cannot, then it must come from other Scripture.
That is exactly and precisely what those verses ARE saying - the unsaved have NO spiritual discernment.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

HeIsHere

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That's a different issue. We're talking about consequences under the law regardless of understanding.
In reading @PaulThomson 's story again, it wasn't a lack of understanding that caused the person to walk into the expensive china, the point is the owner of shop is trying to hold the blind person accountable for an act he set up/induced by not telling him verbally or guiding him to a different path.

That is called entrapment and most often illegal.
 

studier

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Yes, the the god of this world has blinded some (actually quite a few!!!); but who he cannot blind are the elect because Jesus came into this world to destroy the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8)
So, 1John3 written in the context of Christians doing righteousness we're now going to apply to the unregenerate being blinded to the Gospel?

and furthermore the Father protects the elect from the evil one (Jn 17:11: 2Thes 3:3). But meanwhile....the world for whom Jesus explicitly omitted from his High Priestly prayer in John 17 is fair game for the devil.
And election is not mentioned once by the Lord in His prayer, so it's being imported from elsewhere.

And 2Thess3:3 is about the Lord guarding Christians, not a pre- faith, unregenerate "elect."

Re your John 12 passage, I have this question: After Jesus heard Peter's confession of faith and how the apostle understood Jesus to be the Messiah, to what or to whom did Jesus give credit for that confession? To Peter's conscience? To Peter's great knowledge of the OT scriptures? To someone's else's superior knowledge of scripture or better conscience?
Funny, "your John 12 passage" meaning you reference 1 verse with no context and I posted 21 verses to begin the process of looking at some context, so it's my John 12 passage now. Happily accepted!

And here once more, I'll point out that I asked you to explain how you draw a distinction as to what is minimal vs. substantial spiritual information. Your response is to answer a question with a question.

I'll rest that you cannot explain your own insertions into the Text that attempt to qualify what is and is not spiritual information.
 

studier

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self-explanatory.
So, you cannot explain them.

Is it God who blinds or satan?

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Already addressed in the context of the discussion you're joining into.

Not sure which you are referring to but if it has to do with them being blind, I would refer you to the following verse.

[Jhn 9:41 KJV] 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
So I guess the blind man at the china store confessed that he did see the sign after all.
 

Cameron143

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In reading @PaulThomson 's story again, it wasn't a lack of understanding that caused the person to walk into the expensive china, the point is the owner of shop is trying to hold the blind person accountable for an act he set up/induced by not telling him verbally or guiding him to a different path.

That is called entrapment and most often illegal.
You've added to the story. And the story wasn't accurate to begin with. The store owner...God...has no responsibility to tell the blind customer...unregenerate man...in the first place. People are accountable for their own actions. Your example makes God culpable.
 

studier

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That is exactly and precisely what those verses ARE saying - the unsaved have NO spiritual discernment.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Last time.

The evangelistic message to the unsaved of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not in the context.

This is solely about the necessity of Christians to have the Holy Spirit to understand the deep things of God prepared for them. Additionally Christians need some level of spiritual growth to understand these things.
 

HeIsHere

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You've added to the story. And the story wasn't accurate to begin with. The store owner...God...has no responsibility to tell the blind customer...unregenerate man...in the first place. People are accountable for their own actions. Your example makes God culpable.
God is Love.
Love always acts responsibly.
 

studier

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You've added to the story. And the story wasn't accurate to begin with. The store owner...God...has no responsibility to tell the blind customer...unregenerate man...in the first place. People are accountable for their own actions. Your example makes God culpable.
Haven't you altered the story? Dead men and blind men don't drive cars.

And God is holding up signs. Does He expect the blind to see them, or does He use many other means to reveal to them and even at some point just let them go?

I don't typically like such analogies. Next we'll be talking about Balaam's xxx.
 

rogerg

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Last time.

The evangelistic message to the unsaved of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not in the context.

This is solely about the necessity of Christians to have the Holy Spirit to understand the deep things of God prepared for them. Additionally Christians need some level of spiritual growth to understand these things.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit only comes with/from being saved - He is not given to everyone - only to the elect. No one can save themselves (Christ is the Saviour), so one must first be saved by Him, and thereby, are they given understanding/trust in the spiritual things of the Spirit. Until and unless that occurs to them first, they will/can never understand nor believe.
 

Cameron143

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God is Love.
Love always acts responsibly.
What does that even mean?
Besides, God has already by creation and through conscience, already revealed to the blind man his responsibility...Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3.
 

Cameron143

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Haven't you altered the story? Dead men and blind men don't drive cars.

And God is holding up signs. Does He expect the blind to see them, or does He use many other means to reveal to them and even at some point just let them go?

I don't typically like such analogies. Next we'll be talking about Balaam's xxx.
I haven't changed anything. I've merely commented on the example given, and provided another example.
And by your own admission, the original example was not accurate, as God has made things plain.
 

rogerg

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So, you cannot explain them.
No further explanation needed. The verses are not complicated.

So I guess the blind man at the china store confessed that he did see the sign after all.
This analogy is absurd, but I will indulge you for one more iteration. He should have known he was blind and factored/considered that into his actions beforehand. Because he didn't, he is just as liable as a drunk driver who should have known he was drinking before he drove. If either doesn't do so, then they are held liable for the outcome of their actions, and this is the last time that I will address this.
 

Rufus

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The Exodus Typology, Pt 1
A few very basic things things should be remembered:

1. Everything in the OT was ultimately written for the benefit of God's NC people (2Tim 3:16-17; 1Cor 10:11; Rom 15:4). Therefore, we should make every honest effort to understand the prophets of old, especially since all truth finds its ground in the OT.

2. The OT describes The Exodus account, wherein God's Chosen People were freed from their physical bondage to Egypt's king Pharaoh as being redemptive in nature (Deut 7:8). Therefore, we have every reason to view The Exodus as a shadow, forerunner or type of NC spiritual, eternal redemption.

3. While it won't be possible to unpack all the many types, we'll will concentrate on a few of them for the primary purpose of this argument, which is to prove: A) God sovereignly and unconditionally chose to make one nation for himself from the loins of one man; B) He also decreed that his Chosen People were to be enslaved to Pharaoh for 400 years; and C) He also decreed that He would do what was impossible for the ancient Hebrews to do through his chosen servants (Moses and Aaron): Free themselves from the oppressive yoke of Pharaoh so that they could go and worship and serve the Lord their God who called them for those purposes through the promises He made to their forefather Abraham.

And with regard to this latter point, we should not forget the historical context in which God Effectually Called Abraham. The call to Abraham came on the heels of the Tower of Babel judgment in Genesis 11. Clearly, the progeny of Noah and his three sons didn't truly understand what the Flood was all about, and the lessons they were supposed to learn from that universal, catastrophic event; hence, the second universal judgement upon all mankind. So...God for the time being set aside those wicked men when he confused their tongues and scattered them across the face of the earth. Instead, He was determined to make one special nation for himself out of whole cloth, as it were, with which he would enter into an everlasting, personal, covenant relationship; yet, paradoxically, not with everyone who physically descended from the patriarchs(Rom 9:6-13; Mat 3:9-10; Jn 8:39-41). So then, in the Abrahamic Covenant, which of course was confirmed to Issac and Jacob (as opposed to Ishmael and Esau, respectively), we again find God making a second lump of clay from the one Depraved, Corrupt Adam Lump. (The first instance of this occurring was, of course, in the Garden after the Fall.) Therefore, these two distinct classes of ancient Hebrews are microcosms of the entire human race; for one class are the Natural Children and the other the Children of the Promise. And so it is with all mankind in the world (Rom 8:29-30).

Likewise, we should understand Egypt, which was very likely the first empire to appear on the world stage, is a type of World. And I might add, a highly religious, spiritual world. The Egyptians actually embraced a good deal of biblical truth which they willingly perverted by their spiritual ignorance and darkened understanding and carnal minds. They certainly believed in "higher powers". They believed in the afterlife. I have to think they believed in some form of eternal afterlife embodiment since they went to great trouble to preserve dead bodies, etc. So, yes, the pagan Egyptians who worshiped many gods clearly "understood" some spiritual truth -- but they perverted the truth because they didn't want to retain YHWH in their knowledge either! YHWH's truth is pure. Theirs was corrupt. What else could corrupt hearts produce? Can we draw pure water from a polluted well? (Apparently, we can according to some.)

4. My final point is to reiterate again that God decreed that his Chosen People were to serve the pagan king Pharaoh for 400 years. He consigned them to PRISON! God literally consigned Abraham's descendants to 400+ years of misery and oppression in which his people were HELPLESS. (Ex 3:7-10; 15:13-16) They were totally unable to extricate themselves from their bondage to Pharaoh, just like anyone today is unable to extricate themselves from their bondage to sin. And God decreed all this because of the sins of another nation -- the Amorites. Right here we get a glimpse of the majesty of God. How he sees and knows all -- he sees 100% of the big picture and knows precisely how to weave the fabric of redemptive history with myriads of intricate details that include but is not limited to the rise and fall of kings, the rise and fall of princes and governors, the rise and fall of nations, etc. -- all to ultimately achieve his good and wise purpose. And of course, God also decreed that he would punish the nation that abused his people. Since all this is true, how can we not see that God also decreed the Fall of Man -- of Adam whom God appointed the Federal Head of the entire human race? In what terms we want to think of this decree is immaterial -- whether God decreed it directly or permitted it "indirectly". It doesn't matter. Since the lowly sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from God's will, neither did Adam.
 

studier

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I haven't changed anything. I've merely commented on the example given, and provided another example.
And by your own admission, the original example was not accurate, as God has made things plain.
You've misunderstood me to have admitted anything at least in these few analogy posts.

What's your point of view re: traditional Total Depravity and the absolute spiritual deadness of unregenerate man?
 

Cameron143

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You've misunderstood me to have admitted anything at least in these few analogy posts.

What's your point of view re: traditional Total Depravity and the absolute spiritual deadness of unregenerate man?
I believe the total in total depravity refers to every aspect of man...heart, mind, and will. That is, not that man has lost use of his faculties due to sin, but that every aspect of man has been corrupted.
 

studier

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I believe the total in total depravity refers to every aspect of man...heart, mind, and will. That is, not that man has lost use of his faculties due to sin, but that every aspect of man has been corrupted.
What spiritual truth is man with corrupted faculties responsible to understand?
 

Cameron143

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What spiritual truth is man with corrupted faculties responsible to understand?
It's an odd way to phrase the responsibility of man before God. God doesn't require man to understand. He requires man to do all that is in His word.
 

studier

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It's an odd way to phrase the responsibility of man before God. God doesn't require man to understand. He requires man to do all that is in His word.
Apart from knowing and understanding what to do?

God requires man to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.

Does God require man to believe apart from understanding?

Can man with totally corrupt faculties understand who Jesus Christ is and believe what he understands?