Predestination is misunderstood...

[studier]

There are some theologians who sublimate their hostility. Done in the guise of having a detached, intellectualized discourse, while claiming to be in the pursuit of the truth.

They can seem on the surface to be reasonable and impartial while they are attempting to dismantle a doctrinal concept they wish to prove otherwise.... Its a technique that those listening and functioning in their flesh will find humanly acceptable, while inwardly they too are being hostile in God's judgment.

The importance of presentation is placed over substance to have an appeal for those walking according to their flesh... They are often very religious and will feel secure as long as their approach is able to influence some to see it their way....

So, yes there is a type of denominational hostility when a denomination's false teaching is to be protected to keep the traditional thinking locked in.

Hostility does not have to be overt to be hostile to the truth. Even apathy can be a form of hostility when its in regards to spiritual matters.

All granted. Nevertheless, there is substantial Scripture, some of which I posted in part, that mandates a certain demeanor among Christian siblings.

Galatians 5 speaks rhetorically about biting and devouring one another and lists enmity/hostility as a work of the flesh.

Let's say you, being of a mature age, have the ability to discern the smooth-talkers. Are you absolutely certain that you have the ability to discern what is and what is not accurate teaching - to know when any and every doctrine you've been taught is wrongly being dismantled?

Please forgive me for repeating this, but IMO you've used Scripture out of context more than once in our discussion to substantiate a point you're attempting to make. Yet, when you're asked to look at context and discuss it, you provide a link to a pastor you learn from and highlight his education in languages. A pastor's credentials and being learned in languages do not insure all his teaching is accurate. Even within any pastor's theological denomination he's likely disagreed with. A pastor's credentials do not ensure his students have properly understood him.

Are you 100% sure that the Free Grace Dispensationalism you've been taught for 43 or more years is completely accurate? Have you ventured out to hear or read any exegetical teachings from the original languages from other theological systems of thought? How about eschatology - have you read any of the major works of other interpretive schools? Do you think you'd be able to critique them from the Text apart from looking for a CD and relying on your pastor? Are you truly rested in the belief that you have never received any errant teaching and that any or all cutting sarcasm you may put forth is well founded? Do you or have you ever had a check deep in your spirit that something you've been taught doesn't seem right?

 

[studier]

So, Biblical wisdom is when one begins using Scripture out of context to say things one wants it to say. Actually that's called eisegesis, not wisdom. Wisdom is based in accurately understanding Scripture and using it skillfully. It's developed in Christ in Spirit over time.

@selahsays Zzz . How so?

 

[Genez]

Are you 100% sure that the Free Grace Dispensationalism you've been taught for 43 or more years is completely accurate?

Free grace?
Why the need to add the word 'free?'

Please define Free Grace Dispensationalism?
What does that mean to you specifically?

And .... Please, inform me of what you see is the correct way to live since you seem to be saying we are not living in a time of grace relationship with God..

Its you who need to define a few things.
Otherwise, I would need to presume some error to know what you mean.

You mean we are to be back under the Law? Not grace?



To coin a phrase....
"What the heck are you talking about?"

 

[studier]

Free grace?
Why the need to add the word 'free?'

Please define Free Grace Dispensationalism?
What does that mean to you specifically?

And .... Please, inform me of what you see is the correct way to live since you seem to be saying we are not living in a time of grace relationship with God..

Its you who need to define a few things.
Otherwise, I would need to presume some error to know what you mean.

You mean we are to be back under the Law? Not grace?



To coin a phrase....
"What the heck are you talking about?"

RBThieme is in the theological camp commonly referred to as Free Grace Dispensationalism. I normally don't like to use such classifying terminology because there are many variations within the themes. But for simplicity sake, I'm using it here. If you'd like to understand it, then you'll find explanation on the internet by searching it.

The link to the book re: Revelation and eschatology that I earlier thanked the poster for posting, which then prompted you to address me, briefly explains the 4 major schools of eschatological thought. RBThieme believed in and taught one of them - Dispensationalism.

Your assessment re: my view of God's grace is incorrect.

You and I began our discussion for the most part re: the attitudes of Christian siblings dealing with one another re: eschatology. I'd like to keep any discussion in this area rather than venturing into other areas of theology. My point was simple. I see Eschatology still being worked out in the Church in history. The Spirit of God is our instructor. When He has us vitally focused on it, the Church will come to more of a consensus just like it has with other major doctrines throughout history. That focus may be intensifying.

Each Eschatological school of thought thinks it has it all worked out. The battles can be intense at any level of understanding. Intensity is fine. Fallacious argumentation in all its forms, including disrespect and hostility is counter productive and poor argumentation.

A picture if I may. I spent several years living on an island in the middle of the Pacific. In a small way by comparison, I view it as my time away from things kind of like Paul experienced. In one respect I literally moved there just to focus on God's Word away from what many think is Church. On this island, chickens lived freely everywhere. To cut to the chase, the roosters at what I'd call their teen period, could be seen squaring off with one another. They'd posture face to face and at some point would lunge at each other, basically bounce off of one another's chest, and kind of walk away proudly like they'd accomplished something. Periodically at some point you'd see one of them stumbling around after being trounced by some older and more experienced fighter. Some of these theological discussions on forums remind me of the teenage roosters who've been taught some systematic theology by their pastors. The reality is there are studied men who would trounce most or all of us if we stepped out into the wider theological arena.

It seems you've spent 43 years listening to a pastor. On the one hand I commend you for your perseverance. On the other hand, when you step out of that systematic theology, as you know, there are other interpretive systems of thought. You've been taught that they are wrong. Prove your case with Scripture. Or, which may be easier, venture out and read some of the works on eschatology from the other systems. If you come away thinking you have the ability to prove that they are wrong, then you should write a book of your own, or use some tech to reach the rest of us. Posting a link to your [deceased] pastor is not an argument. Plenty of his contemporaries with languages training saw things differently than he did and wrote extensive works explaining their research.

 

[Genez]

RBThieme is in the theological camp commonly referred to as Free Grace Dispensationalism. I normally don't like to use such classifying terminology because there are many variations within the themes. But for simplicity sake, I'm using it here. If you'd like to understand it, then you'll find explanation on the internet by searching it.

The link to the book re: Revelation and eschatology that I earlier thanked the poster for posting, which then prompted you to address me, briefly explains the 4 major schools of eschatological thought. RBThieme believed in and taught one of them - Dispensationalism.

Your assessment re: my view of God's grace is incorrect.

You and I began our discussion for the most part re: the attitudes of Christian siblings dealing with one another re: eschatology. I'd like to keep any discussion in this area rather than venturing into other areas of theology. My point was simple. I see Eschatology still being worked out in the Church in history. The Spirit of God is our instructor. When He has us vitally focused on it, the Church will come to more of a consensus just like it has with other major doctrines throughout history. That focus may be intensifying.

Each Eschatological school of thought thinks it has it all worked out. The battles can be intense at any level of understanding. Intensity is fine. Fallacious argumentation in all its forms, including disrespect and hostility is counter productive and poor argumentation.

A picture if I may. I spent several years living on an island in the middle of the Pacific. In a small way by comparison, I view it as my time away from things kind of like Paul experienced. In one respect I literally moved there just to focus on God's Word away from what many think is Church. On this island, chickens lived freely everywhere. To cut to the chase, the roosters at what I'd call their teen period, could be seen squaring off with one another. They'd posture face to face and at some point would lunge at each other, basically bounce off of one another's chest, and kind of walk away proudly like they'd accomplished something. Periodically at some point you'd see one of them stumbling around after being trounced by some older and more experienced fighter. Some of these theological discussions on forums remind me of the teenage roosters who've been taught some systematic theology by their pastors. The reality is there are studied men who would trounce most or all of us if we stepped out into the wider theological arena.

It seems you've spent 43 years listening to a pastor. On the one hand I commend you for your perseverance. On the other hand, when you step out of that systematic theology, as you know, there are other interpretive systems of thought. You've been taught that they are wrong. Prove your case with Scripture. Or, which may be easier, venture out and read some of the works on eschatology from the other systems. If you come away thinking you have the ability to prove that they are wrong, then you should write a book of your own, or use some tech to reach the rest of us. Posting a link to your [deceased] pastor is not an argument. Plenty of his contemporaries with languages training saw things differently than he did and wrote extensive works explaining their research.

So. let's establish this much.

You do not believe there are dispensations. Correct?

I found my pastor through as process of going through exposure to different ways to conclude.
You approach me as if you are speaking to a baby Christian...

You can do what you want.
For you know that what sits well with you?
There is someone out there who you can teach that will agree with you.

I have to trust my leading by God.
And, my spiritual instincts with you are being read loud and clear.

Wishing you a nice Day....

 

[studier]

So. let's establish this much.

You do not believe there are dispensations. Correct?

I found my pastor through as process of going through exposure to different ways to conclude.
You approach me as if you are speaking to a baby Christian...

You can do what you want.
For you know that what sits well with you?
There is someone out there who you can teach that will agree with you.

I have to trust my leading by God.
And, my spiritual instincts with you are being read loud and clear.

Wishing you a nice Day....

I see a concept of administrations in the Text. So do others in some of the non-Dispensational schools of thought. But there's much more to Dispensationalism.

You misread me in part and are being defensive. You've not clarified what you actually have been exposed to before you settled into a system 43 years ago. But with what you have said, I know quite a bit about what you've been exposed to for those 43 years exposure to the system of theology you've pointed me to. In fact, in the first few posts of yours that I read on this forum, I knew where you were being taught.

You should absolutely trust your leading from God. Everyone should. Our spiritual instincts are what they are at our point of spiritual growth. What we have to ask ourselves along the way is whether it is truly God leading us, or if we have settled back into some comfort zone of our own devices. There remains a part of some of us that can be attracted to someone compelling us to believe we're the winner believers and those who don't listen to our pastor are the loser believers.

 

[Genez]

I see a concept of administrations in the Text. So do others in some of the non-Dispensational schools of thought. But there's much more to Dispensationalism.

You misread me in part and are being defensive.

I have to stop here:

The only thing that might have made me feel defensive?
Would be your presumption that I am feeling defensive.

I would much rather leave you be, to spread whatever it is that you wish others to believe.

All I can see with you is a person who desires to deal the deck to see who can win over a battle of words.
We are warned not to do that. 2 Timothy 2:14

I would rather sit tight and come to the defense of another whom I see another trying to take advantage of
than concern myself with someone like yourself simply not agreeing with me.


I really am living better things to do.

grace and peace ...........

 

[studier]

I have to stop here:

The only thing that might have made me feel defensive?
Would be your presumption that I am feeling defensive.

I would much rather leave you be, to spread whatever it is that you wish others to believe.

All I can see with you is a person who desires to deal the deck to see who can win over a battle of words.
We are warned not to do that. 2 Timothy 2:14

I would rather sit tight and come to the defense of another whom I see another trying to take advantage of
than concern myself with someone like yourself simply not agreeing with me.


I really am living better things to do.

grace and peace ...........

Understood.

Remember that you addressed me first and all I said to prompt your correction or disagreement was to thank @maxamir for posting a link to something that explained the different schools of eschatology and state the opinion that I wish more understood them and were less hostile to one another on the topic of eschatology.

If I'm dealing the deck with an understanding of things you don't have, or with some ability to read Scripture in context, then I make no apologies for the cards you're getting. There is no slight of hand at play and you can't prove any. If you'd now like to analyze with me the 2 Timothy 2:14 verse you've used to suggest that you've been warned about men like me and to assess if the words we've been discussing are of no importance, I'm happy to do this. As you've likely come to understand, it will take more than a link to your pastor's site to prove your use of Scripture is accurate. So far IMO you're 0 for 3 - maybe it's 0 for 4 now but I'm open to the accurate and proper rebuke of Scripture. You should reassess your use of a link to another's work as your ability to defend.

BTW, I'll agree with you without hesitation if I see you say something about Scripture that I think accords with Truth. You already know my response to what I see as an inaccurate use of Scripture. The offer to review the Scriptures you've put forth verse by verse in context remains open. Other than that, I agree with your cessation.

BTW, somewhat off topic, are you retired military? After 43 years under your PT, you may know why I ask.

 

[Genez]

Understood.

Remember that you addressed me first and all I said to prompt your correction or disagreement was to thank @maxamir for posting a link to something that explained the different schools of eschatology and state the opinion that I wish more understood them and were less hostile to one another on the topic of eschatology.

What Maxamir linked to you seem unfazed by.

 

[Genez]

BTW, somewhat off topic, are you retired military? After 43 years under your PT, you may know why I ask.

All walks of life learn from him.

I am not retired military... I served during the Vietnam years in the National Guard years before I even read the Bible.
Later, sitting under RBT caused me to understand what it was I went through while in the army years.

I was not attracted to Robert Thieme's teachings for his military back ground. I began listening to him after a professor
of ancient languages at the Bible college I attended recommended Thieme to me on night before church service. Other
pastors on campus and a few students were following his free of charge teachings. Some pastors around the country
used RBT lessons as reference material.

RBT had an ability to explain military details mentioned in the Bible where most pastors are ignorant, or very weak in understanding.
Jesus making his enemies into his footstool is from Roman military thinking. Its not as simple as we imagine.

King David .. Joshua ... Moses.... and others can not be fully appreciated for their mentality without someone shedding light on their
military skills presented in the Bible... Without such teaching most of us never can get to appreciate what Jesus caused in these men to be manifested in their lives. One thing I was highly fascinated by... was his insights on the military metaphors used by Paul (and why Paul was able to use them).

Beside the military?

RBT as a mature Christian man offered many insights and wisdom for all aspects of life that the Bible covers.



grace and peace .......

 

[maxamir]

The KJV may say so... But OT believers were believers. Never called "saints."


I wonder if there is a schoolyard where you might be able to try your bully tactics on?

Not with me you don't.

The teaching you push was designed for those who like to bully young immature believers.

Now, be a strong big brave boy... and accept that no one here will take you seriously, unless they are still babes in Christ, and not know any better to not waste their time.

Titus 3:10-11

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.​

.. is that angel wings I hear?

once again you prove that you are unteachable and unable to discern the truth according to Scripture and instead throw accusations and childish slander.

If you can not refute what is said using Scripture then you either do not yet know Scripture or have the Holy Spirit which guides the saints into all truth.

 

[maxamir]

Many years research?

That eye hiding cowardly behind a hole in the wall looks only around 18 years old.

And, the thinking that eye presents? Seems to be hovering around the same..

You're young. There is plenty of time for you to learn what is really needed.

Wishing you well....

it is said by many that the eyes are the windows to the soul and at least I have them opened for you to see but your eyes are closed and your mind is handed over the lie that God has two covenants and therefore deny the New Covenant in which Christ spilled His blood for His people, some of which were of the Old but by grace have been brought into the New.

Please do not bother replying if you do not have anything substantial or edifying to say.

 

[maxamir]

And you are quite welcome to your view and can probably explain it.

I've been watching, not closely, but sufficiently for me at this time, some interesting work currently going on within the Preterist camps.

be cautious and know that full Preterism is heresy and denies the return of the Lord. I adhere to partial Preterism and can see fulfilment of some prophecies historically but sit within the Idealist camp knowing that prophecies have a now and then fulfilment and are applicable to all Christians for all ages as being the revealed Word of God.

 

[selahsays]

@selahsays Zzz . How so?

I think you know. You ain’t fooling me.

 

[maxamir]

And you are quite welcome to your view and can probably explain it.

I've been watching, not closely, but sufficiently for me at this time, some interesting work currently going on within the Preterist camps.

Many today are pursuing the lie of Christian Nationalism which has its foundation in Postmil Theonomy and a very good article which I highly recommend and argues against this eschatology while defending Amillennialism is found below.

A defense of Amillennialism against Postmillennialism

 

[Genez]

once again you prove that you are unteachable and unable to discern the truth according to Scripture and instead throw accusations and childish slander.

If you can not refute what is said using Scripture then you either do not yet know Scripture or have the Holy Spirit which guides the saints into all truth.

Go away, sir. My Lord says I should have nothing to do with you.

Titus 3:10-11​

​

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. ​

After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such ​

people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.​

Its not very nice when you become the brunt of a Christian's obedience....

You might even try to turn the tables on them and tell them they are rude. .....
Gaslighting tends to do things like that.

​

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18​

​

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain ​

until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ​

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an ​

archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ​

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the ​

clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ​

Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Christians are to comfort one another with the thought of the rapture.
You? Thanks!

Instead are acting like an agent not of God, one who wants to destroy (if he could) a great comfort that you will never know.


You have the problem, sir. I pray you repent before you leave this earth.

I have nothing to prove to you.
You would have to be absolutely too dumb to reason with to want to place yourself in such a position of doing evil.
Bullies are always dumb.

Have a nice Day.

I'm putting you on Ignore.


..................

 

[studier]

All walks of life learn from him.

I am not retired military... I served during the Vietnam years in the National Guard years before I even read the Bible.
Later, sitting under RBT caused me to understand what it was I went through while in the army years.

I was not attracted to Robert Thieme's teachings for his military back ground. I began listening to him after a professor
of ancient languages at the Bible college I attended recommended Thieme to me on night before church service. Other
pastors on campus and a few students were following his free of charge teachings. Some pastors around the country
used RBT lessons as reference material.

RBT had an ability to explain military details mentioned in the Bible where most pastors are ignorant, or very weak in understanding.
Jesus making his enemies into his footstool is from Roman military thinking. Its not as simple as we imagine.

King David .. Joshua ... Moses.... and others can not be fully appreciated for their mentality without someone shedding light on their
military skills presented in the Bible... Without such teaching most of us never can get to appreciate what Jesus caused in these men to be manifested in their lives. One thing I was highly fascinated by... was his insights on the military metaphors used by Paul (and why Paul was able to use them).

Beside the military?

RBT as a mature Christian man offered many insights and wisdom for all aspects of life that the Bible covers.



grace and peace .......

Just wondered. Thanks.

 

[studier]

be cautious and know that full Preterism is heresy and denies the return of the Lord. I adhere to partial Preterism and can see fulfilment of some prophecies historically but sit within the Idealist camp knowing that prophecies have a now and then fulfilment and are applicable to all Christians for all ages as being the revealed Word of God.

Thanks. I live under caution of what men teach about anything from the Text. Honestly, the more I've learned of the manifold views of men and the more I've studied (and taught) the Text, the more I simply rest on the foundation of being in faith and submission to Jesus who is YHWH's Christ and therefore has, as He said, all authority in Heaven and on earth (let alone all knowledge). This is the basis for what He said in John 4 about the new era that God was instituting - the bowing in obeisance ("worship" is not a great translation) to God in Spirit and Truth.

Wrangling about this or that doctrine or taking part in this or that "...ism" has just been a waste of time and misplaced allegiances among men. The divisions in our day are seemingly endless and everybody thinks their interpretation is correct and fights for it, mostly with fallacious argumentation techniques. Many in the pews fight from an overview of principles they've been taught, but few are very versed in actually using Scripture in context.

In my first-year Greek decades ago I asked the professor what the issue is these 2,000 years later. He calmly and politely said, "eisegesis". Everybody thinks the Spirit is teaching them. He's called the Spirit of Truth. There's a problem with men. Nothing new. As some in some in these forums have rightly said, all in the Church are not necessarily the Church. And that's just one issue among others.

 

[studier]

What Maxamir linked to you seem unfazed by.

I'm not certain what your point is, but I'm pretty much unfazed by most things. All I expect from men re: theology is debate from traditions. Agreement seems rare, but it is refreshing when found. I glanced through the linked book in entirety. I read the short section on the various schools of eschatological thought. I commented only on that.

 

[studier]

I think you know. You ain’t fooling me.

Actually, I don't know what you meant and I'm not in any way trying to fool you. I don't know anything about you and honestly, I had to look at what your emoji meant. I don't use them that much. You could just as easily have been telling me you were sleepy (just for you smiling selahsays. Nice photo).