God and Time
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Christianity as a belief isn't really compatible with the concept of "safety in numbers" 
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Time is so difficult to talk about, and so infinitely complicated, that as we discuss it, there's a tendency to accidentally posit all kinds of propositions that we probably shouldn't.
I don't think we want to suggest that divine attributes, such as LOVE and TRUTH, are characteristics God CHOSE for himself.
1.) The traditional & biblical understanding has always been that God's divine attributes are, and have always been, an immutable and indivisible part of his divine nature.
2.) To suggest God CHOSE his attributes, is to suggest there was a time prior, when he did NOT HAVE THEM. And if God ever existed without the attributes of God, he would not have been God.
3.) God has always been God, immutable and changeless, with all of his divine attributes that make up his "God-ness."
I think the intentions here were good, but we don't want to defeat an argument by accidentally creating an even worse argument.
God Bless.
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I don't think we want to suggest that divine attributes, such as LOVE and TRUTH, are characteristics God CHOSE for himself.
1.) The traditional & biblical understanding has always been that God's divine attributes are, and have always been, an immutable and indivisible part of his divine nature.
2.) To suggest God CHOSE his attributes, is to suggest there was a time prior, when he did NOT HAVE THEM. And if God ever existed without the attributes of God, he would not have been God.
3.) God has always been God, immutable and changeless, with all of his divine attributes that make up his "God-ness."
I think the intentions here were good, but we don't want to defeat an argument by accidentally creating an even worse argument.
God Bless.
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Thanks for your reply. I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Allow me to explain…
First, when we speak of essence, we. are talking about God’s being or ontology. Essence is defined as “the permanent as contrasted with accidental element of being.” Thus, if part of who God is by his very nature is one who, as a personal being, has a past, present and a future. I would argue that this is the most natural way to understand the biblical texts. In fact, describing God as “eternal” suggests an endless duration through time. Passages that speak of God having no beginning or end indicate a persisting through time rather than transcending it. God is described as being one who “lives forever” and “our God forever and ever.” He is pictured as one who has been “enthroned from of old; you are everlasting.” “Even they will perish, but you endure…But you are the same, your years will not come to an end.“ All these texts indicate an unending duration and a past that spans throughout time, not independent of it. So yes, as the texts describe God, his everlasting nature is a fundamental part of his being. In fact, I would argue that those who argue that God stands apart from time are also staking a claim on his essence. I just dont think the Bible supports it.
If anything, I think the verse you quoted supports my claim more than yours. The author does not say that time does not apply to God. Rather, the statement is that time applies differently to God which supports a metatemporal view rather than an atemporal one. Since God is eternal, his experience of time is far different than moral beings…especially if God’s time is different from our own.
I never said that God cannot operate in time if atemporality is true. I said that time does not apply to Him. So, even though he may interact in our time, for him, if time does not exist, there is no before or after. He never thinks a new thought or performs a new act. All of these things demand a before and after. In order for God to “create” anything, there has to be a TIME when something did not exist and a TIME when it existed afterwards. Yet, if God does not exist in time, all things are present. So, while he may interact in our ”time” for him, all things are immediately present. So while for us, God’s acts may be sequential, for him, they are not. Moreover, a timeless being, imo cannot represent the God we see in the Bible who is a personal, caring, involved God who “remembers, deliberates, anticipates, decides, intends, is grieved, becomes angry, and rejoices” (Hasker, 150).
This is incompatible with a God for whom all events are simultaneously present and never experiences a new moment or thought.
I dont understand your point about foreknowledge. It seems you are undermining the point you are trying to make. To have knowledge “beforehand” indicates TIME. Before means prior to the event itself. Thus, to know something before it happens is to have knowledge of things before they happen. Now certainly this could apply to both an atemporal or temporal God if we are speaking of Gods knowledge of things from our perspective. Certainly God has foreknowledge in either case, but if God himself possesses foreknowledge from his perspective, it would imply he exists in time. I just brought up foreknowledge because of the notion that a temporal or metatemporal God necessitates he does not know the future. I dont think we have to conclude God does not exist in time to possess knowledge of things prior to their occurrence .
Im not arguing that an atemporal God is “impossible.” Certainly it is a valid theory and I can imagine a God that exists outside of time. However, I cannot imagine that God being the Christian God. I cannot reconcile God’s engagement in the world as a personal, engaged and interactive Creator who becomes man as being a God who exists in an eternal present and is not genuinely shocked, saddened, angered, or blessed by our temporal actions.
First, when we speak of essence, we. are talking about God’s being or ontology. Essence is defined as “the permanent as contrasted with accidental element of being.” Thus, if part of who God is by his very nature is one who, as a personal being, has a past, present and a future. I would argue that this is the most natural way to understand the biblical texts. In fact, describing God as “eternal” suggests an endless duration through time. Passages that speak of God having no beginning or end indicate a persisting through time rather than transcending it. God is described as being one who “lives forever” and “our God forever and ever.” He is pictured as one who has been “enthroned from of old; you are everlasting.” “Even they will perish, but you endure…But you are the same, your years will not come to an end.“ All these texts indicate an unending duration and a past that spans throughout time, not independent of it. So yes, as the texts describe God, his everlasting nature is a fundamental part of his being. In fact, I would argue that those who argue that God stands apart from time are also staking a claim on his essence. I just dont think the Bible supports it.
If anything, I think the verse you quoted supports my claim more than yours. The author does not say that time does not apply to God. Rather, the statement is that time applies differently to God which supports a metatemporal view rather than an atemporal one. Since God is eternal, his experience of time is far different than moral beings…especially if God’s time is different from our own.
I never said that God cannot operate in time if atemporality is true. I said that time does not apply to Him. So, even though he may interact in our time, for him, if time does not exist, there is no before or after. He never thinks a new thought or performs a new act. All of these things demand a before and after. In order for God to “create” anything, there has to be a TIME when something did not exist and a TIME when it existed afterwards. Yet, if God does not exist in time, all things are present. So, while he may interact in our ”time” for him, all things are immediately present. So while for us, God’s acts may be sequential, for him, they are not. Moreover, a timeless being, imo cannot represent the God we see in the Bible who is a personal, caring, involved God who “remembers, deliberates, anticipates, decides, intends, is grieved, becomes angry, and rejoices” (Hasker, 150).
This is incompatible with a God for whom all events are simultaneously present and never experiences a new moment or thought.
I dont understand your point about foreknowledge. It seems you are undermining the point you are trying to make. To have knowledge “beforehand” indicates TIME. Before means prior to the event itself. Thus, to know something before it happens is to have knowledge of things before they happen. Now certainly this could apply to both an atemporal or temporal God if we are speaking of Gods knowledge of things from our perspective. Certainly God has foreknowledge in either case, but if God himself possesses foreknowledge from his perspective, it would imply he exists in time. I just brought up foreknowledge because of the notion that a temporal or metatemporal God necessitates he does not know the future. I dont think we have to conclude God does not exist in time to possess knowledge of things prior to their occurrence .
Im not arguing that an atemporal God is “impossible.” Certainly it is a valid theory and I can imagine a God that exists outside of time. However, I cannot imagine that God being the Christian God. I cannot reconcile God’s engagement in the world as a personal, engaged and interactive Creator who becomes man as being a God who exists in an eternal present and is not genuinely shocked, saddened, angered, or blessed by our temporal actions.
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What if God’s nature includes time? And if God currently dwells in a timeless eternity with no past, present or future, doesn’t that contradict the picture we see in Revelation with the tree of life yielding fruit each month? Eternity, imo, implies an endless span of time, not a timeless state.
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@Chaps
I like your recent posts better because they’re more nuanced and explain other thoughts.
However before I respond, I’d like to remind you again that since we don’t know what Time means at a fundamental level, a lot of what you’ve said, or what I’ve said or the people before us have said, remain a mystery or best guess which is why these philosophical debates are always fun because they have no answer
What is your evidence or reason to think that God operates with the same rules of Time as we perceive it so you can keep your other two topics into play? Temporalism and metatemporalism.
Because a lot of what you’ve said, tries to describe the kind of God from a human point of view.
How can you claim to know the mind of God or how He perceives things including Time?
Again, we don’t know what Time is to make more accurate guesses about what God might think about Time or how He sees it.
Why would it be too simplistic to say that
“ God created this only universe we know of and live in so this is our only evidence to say a few things about our existence including our currently unknown understanding of Time”
Where is your evidence of the “outside” so we can even talk about other ideas that you posted?
I like your recent posts better because they’re more nuanced and explain other thoughts.
However before I respond, I’d like to remind you again that since we don’t know what Time means at a fundamental level, a lot of what you’ve said, or what I’ve said or the people before us have said, remain a mystery or best guess which is why these philosophical debates are always fun because they have no answer
What is your evidence or reason to think that God operates with the same rules of Time as we perceive it so you can keep your other two topics into play? Temporalism and metatemporalism.
Because a lot of what you’ve said, tries to describe the kind of God from a human point of view.
How can you claim to know the mind of God or how He perceives things including Time?
Again, we don’t know what Time is to make more accurate guesses about what God might think about Time or how He sees it.
Why would it be too simplistic to say that
“ God created this only universe we know of and live in so this is our only evidence to say a few things about our existence including our currently unknown understanding of Time”
Where is your evidence of the “outside” so we can even talk about other ideas that you posted?
Maybe the best way to ponder this is by process of elimination. I agree that our understanding of eternity and timelessness moves far outside human comprehension. And, as you mentioned, time itself is a bit of a mystery. However, since God has chosen to reveal himself to us in time and through human language, I think that is a safe place to start. God, himself, reveals who he in a human language and from a human point of view. So, I believe that communication is as close to what we can get to understanding these concepts…and that communication is quite reliable.
First, I would claim to be a metatemporalist. Thus I dont think God operates with the same rules of time as we perceive it. I admit that while God’s experience of time is likely far different than our own, I do think it implies a past, present and future. The reason I say this is not merely a philosophical reflection but based on Scriptural revelation. So, when Scripture says that God gets angry, has remorse, or changes his mind, we have to consider what these passages mean. If God exists outside of time and all things are a continual present to him (thus experiencing no new emotions or thoughts) then we would have to conclude that these passages do not really mean what they imply. So, while I do not know what God’s time is truly like and dont pretend to understand it, I do think Scripture indicates it does imply a past, present and future of some sort. That God really is interacting both in our time and His own. That He really is experiencing emotion and thoughts based on his interactions with us. Why would God grieve an event in our timeline if that moment has always been an enduring present to him? What does it mean when we read in Exodus that God changed his mind? Is God really moved to action by our prayers and allowed himself to be compelled by our petitions, or have all events been in constant stasis before him as one who stands fully outside past, present and future?
So, in my mind, this isn’t really about fully understanding how God’s time works or what time is. Rather, it has more to do with whether or not God experiences a past, present, future and whether or not he makes new decisions or thinks a new thought. Atemporalists would argue that the idea of God having new thoughits or acting in new ways would infringe upon his immutability. But I do not think this is a valid argument. God‘s character does not change, but that does not mean he does not create new things, have new thoughts or respond to actions from his free-will creatures.
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In our current 3 dimension state we cannot expect to understand Eternity. As for the Tree of Life. John was reporting on visions He had seen in which a lot of figurative language is used for instance Rev. 21: 22 refers to Jesus as both a Lamb and a Temple but we know that he is not literally either of them. The Tree of Life is obviously a figurative reference to Jesus who will supply all our needs for there will not be a literal need to pick fruit for healing as Rev. 21:4 shows there will be no more death or suffering. He Jesus is the Tree of Life.
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Chaps I think we’re getting a bit closer to understanding each-other
Let’s consider some of the things you’ve said.
I work with computers by the way, for over 25 years.
Have you thought about how a game designer designs the game, allows for certain random elements in the game (let’s call that limited free will) while knowing the game completely how it ends while still enjoying the journey through the game even when you hit pause or fast forward in the game?
All of these words and concepts make sense to you and me from this point of view in relation to the game because we would be the creators in this case but how can we who are created here inside this universe use language to understand technical aspects of the Creator?
Which brings us to the Bible and language itself, something which I’ve mentioned here before.
The Bible should not be understood as an engineering book but a relationship book to our Creator, and even though you’re not using it as an engineering book, you kinda are, because you’re asking technical questions about Time without any of us knowing or understanding what Time really is.
So this is the problem. This is similar to many folks who think that the whole universe is 6000 years old, because they count generations from the Bible while direct observation with our eyes say that the universe is around 14 billion years old.
So I think it’s important to know the line or the border of the technical aspects of existence when reading the Bible as opposed to the faith and hope that we get from the Bible when we don’t understand these mysteries.
Because language itself is not enough to describe the Creator.
The only thing we know about God which relates to us personally in this existence is Jesus Christ who is the best thing that ever happened to humanity.
We see the Creator joining His creation and having an experience like us with joy and pain and all the range of emotions we experience.
He even wept before He raised Lazarus.
However despite all of that, we still don’t know how He perceives Time so you can even ask the questions that you’ve asked in a correct manner because we don’t even understand how Time works to ask the question properly.
Let’s consider some of the things you’ve said.
I work with computers by the way, for over 25 years.
Have you thought about how a game designer designs the game, allows for certain random elements in the game (let’s call that limited free will) while knowing the game completely how it ends while still enjoying the journey through the game even when you hit pause or fast forward in the game?
All of these words and concepts make sense to you and me from this point of view in relation to the game because we would be the creators in this case but how can we who are created here inside this universe use language to understand technical aspects of the Creator?
Which brings us to the Bible and language itself, something which I’ve mentioned here before.
The Bible should not be understood as an engineering book but a relationship book to our Creator, and even though you’re not using it as an engineering book, you kinda are, because you’re asking technical questions about Time without any of us knowing or understanding what Time really is.
So this is the problem. This is similar to many folks who think that the whole universe is 6000 years old, because they count generations from the Bible while direct observation with our eyes say that the universe is around 14 billion years old.
So I think it’s important to know the line or the border of the technical aspects of existence when reading the Bible as opposed to the faith and hope that we get from the Bible when we don’t understand these mysteries.
Because language itself is not enough to describe the Creator.
The only thing we know about God which relates to us personally in this existence is Jesus Christ who is the best thing that ever happened to humanity.
We see the Creator joining His creation and having an experience like us with joy and pain and all the range of emotions we experience.
He even wept before He raised Lazarus.
However despite all of that, we still don’t know how He perceives Time so you can even ask the questions that you’ve asked in a correct manner because we don’t even understand how Time works to ask the question properly.
Ps. 90:2 BEFORE the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, YOU ARE GOD.
Psalm 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING: and let all the people say, "Amen. Praise you the LORD.
Mic. 5:2 ... yet out of you [Bethehem Ephratah] shall He come forth to Me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING.
Psalm 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING: and let all the people say, "Amen. Praise you the LORD.
Mic. 5:2 ... yet out of you [Bethehem Ephratah] shall He come forth to Me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING.
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