God and Time
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May I suggest what I think is a better analogy for God's experience of time as it reklates to the worlds od space-time he creates. Imagine a hundred thousand balloons filled with liquids that have different densities that are scattered throughout a large lake. Imagine an immaterial vertical geometric plane moving from one end of the lake to the other. The plane begins by passing through no balloons, but as it moves across the lake it will start to intersect through one or more balloons until it reaches the opposite side of the lake. The complete plane includes cuts through both balloons and the spaces between balloons. The comprehension of the complete slice is God's perspective. But an entity within any particular balloon is limited to observing only what is in the slice that is within its own balloon. That's our human perspective. The moving plane is the passage of time, which limits what God and creatures can see, but God and creatures may remember slices that have past.
But only the present slice actually exists. The past slices no longer exist, but can be remembered. The future slices do not yet exist but can be imagined. The boundaries of the time-space balloons are pre-determined by the Creator,, but boundaries still future can be stretched or compressed if God will. The content of the time-space balloons is not pre-determined, unless God determines to bring to pass some particular event/s He has imagined.
Now make the lake infinite and the number of balloons infinitely deep, wide and long. This is analogous to how I see God's relationship to time and space.
But only the present slice actually exists. The past slices no longer exist, but can be remembered. The future slices do not yet exist but can be imagined. The boundaries of the time-space balloons are pre-determined by the Creator,, but boundaries still future can be stretched or compressed if God will. The content of the time-space balloons is not pre-determined, unless God determines to bring to pass some particular event/s He has imagined.
Now make the lake infinite and the number of balloons infinitely deep, wide and long. This is analogous to how I see God's relationship to time and space.
Big Bang is not something found in the Bible Dino. It's a term that was coined somewhere around 1950s i think which gave words to some ideas by a Catholic Priest who said that there was a Big Explosion. 
Why were you asking?
Why were you asking?
Genesis 1:1.
Revelation 22:21.
Revelation 22:21.
Prov. 8:22 The LORD possessed me (Wisdom) IN THE BEGINNING of His way, BEFORE His works of old.
So, in the beginning of God's way God possessed wisdom. So, time started when God began to possess wisdom? So, God started to possess wisdom when He started to create this world? But the creation of this world was "His works of old". And the LORD possessed wisdom BEFORE creating.
These are two different beginnings, and the beginning in which God possessed wisdom preceded the beginning in which God created this world. So, clearly, the beginning of creation is not the earliest beginning in God's existence.
Rev. 22:21 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all."
How is that relevant to your claim that all time began on the first day of creation?
Ha, well I am not an atemporalist, but I wouldn’t classify myself as an open theist. I do believe God is omniscient and that He exists outside our understanding of time…but still hold to the idea that He exists in time as part of His nature. I find it would be hard to understand God’s genuine interaction with humanity in time otherwise.
As I understand it, Open Theology argues that God knows all that can be known, but does not know the free will choices of His creation. So, while God may know all possible contingencies, he does not know in actuality what free will beings will actually choose. Thus, the future is “open“ to God.
I reject this concept. I believe that God does not need to be atemporal to know both all possible futures and the actual free will choices of his creation. I dont believe this means that God is not genuinely angered, surprised or saddened by the actual choices of human beings as we read in Scripture. Although God knows the future through foreknowledge, he does actually experience our choices in the present and can still be impacted by those choices even though He is not unaware of what those choices will be. Just as we may have relative certainty of how something might play out, it doesn’t lessen the impact when the event actually happens. For instance, if you have a loved one placed in hospice care, you are quite aware that they will pass away within a short period of time. That still doesn’t lessen the pain of actually experiencing the death of the loved one when it happens.
Moreover, I dont think this understanding of foreknowledge mandates God created the world in a manner that necessitate divine determinism. Some might say, “If God knew all possible worlds he could create, and created our world as he did, then surely he created the world in such a way that everything would play out exactly as he predetermined it would. Thus, God created the world in a way that would necessitate every outcome.” I disagree with this. I dont think that God’s foreknowledge fully encompasses his own decisions and actions. Thus, prior to creating, God may not have known every outcome of the choices of the free will creatures he determined to create. However, once his creation was established, I believe the future of our free will choices unfolded for him in the same way that his creation unfolded. Thus, the choice to make free will creatures truly granted humanity free will, yet once those creatures were made, God became aware of the future of that creation. I think it is a mistake to suggest that omniscience demands that God know all possibilities before he acts…as a potential reality is not really real. However, once that creation became “real” he knew what future decisions we would make and thus determined his workings within creation for our ultimate salvation in that same moment.
I reject this concept. I believe that God does not need to be atemporal to know both all possible futures and the actual free will choices of his creation. I dont believe this means that God is not genuinely angered, surprised or saddened by the actual choices of human beings as we read in Scripture. Although God knows the future through foreknowledge, he does actually experience our choices in the present and can still be impacted by those choices even though He is not unaware of what those choices will be. Just as we may have relative certainty of how something might play out, it doesn’t lessen the impact when the event actually happens. For instance, if you have a loved one placed in hospice care, you are quite aware that they will pass away within a short period of time. That still doesn’t lessen the pain of actually experiencing the death of the loved one when it happens.
Moreover, I dont think this understanding of foreknowledge mandates God created the world in a manner that necessitate divine determinism. Some might say, “If God knew all possible worlds he could create, and created our world as he did, then surely he created the world in such a way that everything would play out exactly as he predetermined it would. Thus, God created the world in a way that would necessitate every outcome.” I disagree with this. I dont think that God’s foreknowledge fully encompasses his own decisions and actions. Thus, prior to creating, God may not have known every outcome of the choices of the free will creatures he determined to create. However, once his creation was established, I believe the future of our free will choices unfolded for him in the same way that his creation unfolded. Thus, the choice to make free will creatures truly granted humanity free will, yet once those creatures were made, God became aware of the future of that creation. I think it is a mistake to suggest that omniscience demands that God know all possibilities before he acts…as a potential reality is not really real. However, once that creation became “real” he knew what future decisions we would make and thus determined his workings within creation for our ultimate salvation in that same moment.
I want to address this comment you made: "If time is part of God’s essence, he is not “subject” to it because it is part of who He is.".
I think you have the wrong concept of what "essence" is. Essence, has to do with the intrinsic nature of a thing or said another way, the quality that makes a thing what it is. No matter the subject under discussion, "time" would not be a quality of a thing nor would it be it's intrinsic nature but its realm of existence.
When talking about the essence of God, we see the Bible says He is Holy, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Immutable, Spirit and so on. Time is not part of God's makeup. Time is a construct for mankind and God uses it but it has no meaning truly to Him. As Peter wrote: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. When you are an eternal being, a thousand years is no different than a day. One is not longer than the other or vice versa.
You think because God is in an eternal state - the ever present now - He cannot operate within time. You use the term "frozen", which is wholly inappropriate. God is not frozen in eternity. The concept behind "the ever present now", simply means there is no past and there can be no future. If there were a past, then God had a beginning and if He has a future, then there are things He does not know. Yet Scripture says, He knows the end from the beginning. This proves that God resides within an eternal state. Everything that was, is and will be, are in the mind of God all at once. For temporal creatures such as ourselves, this makes no sense to us.
[Oh by the way, "Foreknowledge" does not mean to know the future, It means to have knowledge beforehand and is not limited to time.].
God's Decrees, are like a long single file cabinet. If He were temporal, then it would take time to move from the first decree to the second and so on. However, God's Decrees move from one to the other without time passage. There is order with God but not time. Again, for us, this makes very little sense because that is impossible for us.
Therefore, a decree of God's can come from eternity, in it's proper order and exist within time if time is necessary to carry out that decree. However, time cannot invade eternity or exist within it.
As temporal beings, it is very hard to keep ones mind on the eternal. We have a tendency to slip out of that gear and fall back into temporal thinking.
Those that say this eternal existence, as I am discussing it, causes problems, only say that because they personally don't like the implications that it enlightens.
I think you have the wrong concept of what "essence" is. Essence, has to do with the intrinsic nature of a thing or said another way, the quality that makes a thing what it is. No matter the subject under discussion, "time" would not be a quality of a thing nor would it be it's intrinsic nature but its realm of existence.
When talking about the essence of God, we see the Bible says He is Holy, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Immutable, Spirit and so on. Time is not part of God's makeup. Time is a construct for mankind and God uses it but it has no meaning truly to Him. As Peter wrote: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. When you are an eternal being, a thousand years is no different than a day. One is not longer than the other or vice versa.
You think because God is in an eternal state - the ever present now - He cannot operate within time. You use the term "frozen", which is wholly inappropriate. God is not frozen in eternity. The concept behind "the ever present now", simply means there is no past and there can be no future. If there were a past, then God had a beginning and if He has a future, then there are things He does not know. Yet Scripture says, He knows the end from the beginning. This proves that God resides within an eternal state. Everything that was, is and will be, are in the mind of God all at once. For temporal creatures such as ourselves, this makes no sense to us.
[Oh by the way, "Foreknowledge" does not mean to know the future, It means to have knowledge beforehand and is not limited to time.].
God's Decrees, are like a long single file cabinet. If He were temporal, then it would take time to move from the first decree to the second and so on. However, God's Decrees move from one to the other without time passage. There is order with God but not time. Again, for us, this makes very little sense because that is impossible for us.
Therefore, a decree of God's can come from eternity, in it's proper order and exist within time if time is necessary to carry out that decree. However, time cannot invade eternity or exist within it.
As temporal beings, it is very hard to keep ones mind on the eternal. We have a tendency to slip out of that gear and fall back into temporal thinking.
Those that say this eternal existence, as I am discussing it, causes problems, only say that because they personally don't like the implications that it enlightens.
I don't think God is constrained by time. Regarding the past, He CAN change the past if He wanted to I suppose. But we won't be conscious of it if He did.
But even if I believe that God can change the past, I think He wouldn't feel it is necessary. He knows what will happen and would intervene according to His own wisdom at the time He feels is proper so that He wouldn't have to change the past.
🏝️
But Paul, the reason we assume Time didn’t exist before creation is because the scientists who do this as a full time job say that Time did not exist before the creation because according to the theory of relativity, Space + Time is a bundle.
However despite the best minds working on this for years, we don’t have any concrete proof as what Time means as a concept at the fundamental level of reality so we are left with opinions.
Mine are based on some best guesses based on observation made by others who do this as a full time job.
So, you have a lot more to explain than me.
Because you’re making claims about “outside” or “prior” about Time while we still have no clue what Time really is while we’re in this bubble/universe.
So it’s a bit of a stretch to discuss things of the “outside” when we still don’t understand the Inside.
However despite the best minds working on this for years, we don’t have any concrete proof as what Time means as a concept at the fundamental level of reality so we are left with opinions.
Mine are based on some best guesses based on observation made by others who do this as a full time job.
So, you have a lot more to explain than me.
Because you’re making claims about “outside” or “prior” about Time while we still have no clue what Time really is while we’re in this bubble/universe.
So it’s a bit of a stretch to discuss things of the “outside” when we still don’t understand the Inside.
@Chaps
I like your recent posts better because they’re more nuanced and explain other thoughts.
However before I respond, I’d like to remind you again that since we don’t know what Time means at a fundamental level, a lot of what you’ve said, or what I’ve said or the people before us have said, remain a mystery or best guess which is why these philosophical debates are always fun because they have no answer
What is your evidence or reason to think that God operates with the same rules of Time as we perceive it so you can keep your other two topics into play? Temporalism and metatemporalism.
Because a lot of what you’ve said, tries to describe the kind of God from a human point of view.
How can you claim to know the mind of God or how He perceives things including Time?
Again, we don’t know what Time is to make more accurate guesses about what God might think about Time or how He sees it.
Why would it be too simplistic to say that
“ God created this only universe we know of and live in so this is our only evidence to say a few things about our existence including our currently unknown understanding of Time”
Where is your evidence of the “outside” so we can even talk about other ideas that you posted?
I like your recent posts better because they’re more nuanced and explain other thoughts.
However before I respond, I’d like to remind you again that since we don’t know what Time means at a fundamental level, a lot of what you’ve said, or what I’ve said or the people before us have said, remain a mystery or best guess which is why these philosophical debates are always fun because they have no answer
What is your evidence or reason to think that God operates with the same rules of Time as we perceive it so you can keep your other two topics into play? Temporalism and metatemporalism.
Because a lot of what you’ve said, tries to describe the kind of God from a human point of view.
How can you claim to know the mind of God or how He perceives things including Time?
Again, we don’t know what Time is to make more accurate guesses about what God might think about Time or how He sees it.
Why would it be too simplistic to say that
“ God created this only universe we know of and live in so this is our only evidence to say a few things about our existence including our currently unknown understanding of Time”
Where is your evidence of the “outside” so we can even talk about other ideas that you posted?
Historical truth in regards to creation requires faith but a bit of evidence along the way supports scriptures which is why I like to include extra curricular activities along with the Bible.
Because they support the Bible for a stronger argument.
According to our observations of the universe, it looks like everything had a beginning at around 14 billion years ago.
This aligns with the Bible which says that :
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
Because they support the Bible for a stronger argument.
According to our observations of the universe, it looks like everything had a beginning at around 14 billion years ago.
This aligns with the Bible which says that :
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
"So, time started when God began to possess wisdom?"
The verse does NOT say "began to possess wisdom", as if there was a time God did not have wisdom.
To "possess in the beginning" is entirely different than "beginning to possess"... you completely changed the phrase.
YOU CHANGED SCRIPTURE.
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PaulThomson said:
If God is not constrained by time, can God change the past? Has God ever changed the past?
Well, glad you asked. Yes He can, and yes He did. Lazarus was DEAD, GONE, KAPUT, STINKING ROTTEN!
And with just a few words Jesus raised him from the dead! Past changed!!!
Now, go play somewhere else please.......
If God is not constrained by time, can God change the past? Has God ever changed the past?
Well, glad you asked. Yes He can, and yes He did. Lazarus was DEAD, GONE, KAPUT, STINKING ROTTEN!
And with just a few words Jesus raised him from the dead! Past changed!!!
Now, go play somewhere else please.......
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Here’s some scripture to support what you’re saying
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
John 3:6 KJV
“And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( flesh is made from the earth ) we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption ( flesh ) inherit incorruption.”( spirit )
1 Corinthians 15:49-50 KJV
“to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV
It hearkens back to the beginning and mans fall
“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
Genesis 6:3 KJV
Mans creation
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( body of flesh )
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;( living spirit ) and man became a living soul.”
Genesis 2:7 KJV
mans death
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: ( body of flesh )
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,( flesh )
but after this the judgment:”( spirit )
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
Flesh and blood is a temporary vehicle for mans spirit to exist in creation and determine tbier eternal destination
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
John 3:6 KJV
“And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( flesh is made from the earth ) we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption ( flesh ) inherit incorruption.”( spirit )
1 Corinthians 15:49-50 KJV
“to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV
It hearkens back to the beginning and mans fall
“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
Genesis 6:3 KJV
Mans creation
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( body of flesh )
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;( living spirit ) and man became a living soul.”
Genesis 2:7 KJV
mans death
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: ( body of flesh )
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,( flesh )
but after this the judgment:”( spirit )
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
Flesh and blood is a temporary vehicle for mans spirit to exist in creation and determine tbier eternal destination
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