Did Jesus Have an Advantage over Pre-Fall Adam During the Incarnation?

[cv5]

But herein lies the problem. If He acted on the basis of His own power and authority as God, then we can't follow and He cannot be our example.

That makes no sense. At all. And of course we can follow. We ALWAYS follow.
Maybe you had better get a grip on reality here. We are sheep. Jesus is God.

And since when does any member the Trinity EVER act independently. They never do.

Jhn 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm beginning to get a little tired of repeating myself in this thread. Jesus never stopped being God at anytime nor did He lose, divest Himself or be stripped of all that it is to be God.

He denied Himself the right to act as God and instead relied on the power and authority of God the Father and Spirit for all that He said and did.

I can't say it any plainer.

never get tired of repeating 😊

Wash rinse and repeat 😋

 

[cv5]

He denied Himself the right to act as God

Absolutely FALSE. You are on the precipice of heresy. Actually you are in the canyon. Too late.

Mat 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mat 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mat 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mat 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 18:26
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Wash rinse and repeat 😋

Never get tired of repeating

Never get tired of repeating

Never get tired of repeating

 

[sawdust]

That makes no sense. At all. And of course we can follow. We ALWAYS follow.
Maybe you had better get a grip on reality here. We are sheep. Jesus is God.

And since when does any member the Trinity EVER act independently. They never do.

Jhn 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Jhn 10:5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

How can Jesus be an example of how we are to live if He lived life as God? God cannot be tempted. How could we do greater things if what He did was as God? If not for the humanity of Christ we could not know God. This is why the Son is both God and man. God's thoughts and ways are beyond our comprehension. Deity is explained through the humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He was born as a man, He lived as a man, He died as a man. This is the true miracle that the Second Person of the Trinity would limit Himself to such a degree for a time in order to save us.

 

[sawdust]

Absolutely FALSE. You are on the precipice of heresy. Actually you are in the canyon. Too late.

Mat 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mat 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mat 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mat 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mat 18:26
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Jesus never stopped being God which is why people could recognise He was worthy to be worshiped even though He was flesh and blood. It doesn't alter what I have said. He did nothing on His own authority or in His own power.

 

[cv5]

How can Jesus be an example of how we are to live if He lived life as God? God cannot be tempted. How could we do greater things if what He did was as God? If not for the humanity of Christ we could not know God. This is why the Son is both God and man. God's thoughts and ways are beyond our comprehension. Deity is explained through the humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He was born as a man, He lived as a man, He died as a man. This is the true miracle that the Second Person of the Trinity would limit Himself to such a degree for a time in order to save us.

If you actually believe that Jesus was merely a man, then I say that your salvation is in dire jeopardy. And that you are spreading devastating heresy.

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM ("he" is not in the text), ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Exo 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[cv5]

He did nothing on His own authority or in His own power.

Absolute nonsense. He used His own power and authority as much as the Father and Spirit used theirs.

God is One in power and purpose.

Oh yea......Jesus simply DECLARING that he was going to resurrect Himself is proof positive of his eternal omnipotence.
Unless of course God aka YHVH aka Christ Jesus is impotently bragging and actually could not accomplish it.

 

[posthuman]

You don't believe Jesus could refrain from exercising His divinity while simultaneously living in the power of the Holy Spirit?

i don't believe God ever ceases to be God, and i believe that the very nature of God includes what Romans calls "His eternal power."

i also believe that an everlasting gobstopper that isn't actually everlasting is false advertisement.

 

[PaulThomson]

He can create an object so massive He cannot move it,
and He can also move it.

He could with a word, at any time, erase all of creation. the fact that He didn't doesn't mean He rendered Himself incapable of doing so.

my opinion is that Philippians 2 is being misrepresented by the kenosis position - consider the preface to the verses being so often cited here:

Philippians 2:3-5​

[Let] nothing [be done] through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,​

this is the context of the description of His having stopped to pitch His tent among us: as an example for us how we ought to live.
we aren't being instructed to rid ourselves of the capability to act, or to disown ourselves from our inherent virtues. we're being instructed to be meek.

We agree that this is saying we should have the same mind as was in Christ in giving Himself for others. But the context does not exclude the possibility that the Son did this by laying aside his own omnipotence to depend upon the Holy Spirit's omnipotence. We are, in fact, exhorted to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might Eph. 6:10; to be strengthened with all power according to His glorious might Col 1:11; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies. 1 Pet. 4:11
If Jesus performed by His own power, the example set is that we should serve in our own power.

 

[posthuman]

You don't believe Jesus could refrain from exercising His divinity while simultaneously living in the power of the Holy Spirit?

refraining from doing something isn't the same as being incapable of doing something

but when we talk about for example omniscience, that's not a quantitative capability or action; it's a qualitative attribute.
i can't stop knowing the sky is blue

 

[notmyown]

Please show me from scripture where it says Jesus raised Himself.

Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

??

 

[cv5]

If Jesus performed by His own power, the example set is that we should serve in our own power.

From whence did you conjure up this idea? Out of your own imagination?

 

[Charlie_2024]

Don't rely on your memory. My post of #191

That's exactly what I thought you said, but it's only half true. The other half of it is Jesus laid it aside and took it back up whenever He saw fit. And that was many times during His time on earth.

So, you were half right. The biblical fact of the matter is, Jesus was always fully man and fully God but He didn't use His God powers to numb the pain He had to suffer in order to pay the penalty for the sins of Gods elect. He also didn't use His God powers to resist the temptation to sin.

As I said before, He did use His power in many other instances, not only to perform miracles but also in teaching and preaching and perceiving what others were thinking. So it could be said that He used His God power about 50% of the time and He acted as an ordinary man during the other 50% of the time so it was a fairly even mix.

Now if you don't agree, you will need to provide scripture to support your protest. Private opinions will be thrown out of court.

 

[cv5]

refraining from doing something isn't the same as being incapable of doing something

but when we talk about for example omniscience, that's not a quantitative capability or action; it's a qualitative attribute.
i can't stop knowing the sky is blue

Jesus is the Judge of all. And He certainly is "refraining" from doing that job in its fullness too.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Peter was a man, but walked on water ... by someone else's power. Walking on water is no proof of deity. Even an iron axehead can float on water by someons else's power.

That argument simply doesn't support your theory, as you can't draw a parallel between Peter and God. Peter required God to perform a miracle on His behalf but Jesus didn't need God's help at all because He is God and He always has been and always will be. End of argument, don't take it personal when a brother corrects you. A fool despises correction, but a wise man loves it.

 

[cv5]

He could do nothing on His own

Totally wrong, absurd, and impossible. Jesus did not suddenly become a soulless powerless impotent robot at the incarnation.
He did that which the Trinity had earlier agreed upon to fulfill all prophecy and do the work that was agreed upon in eternity past. Including whatever so-called restraints and limitations necessary to fulfill the plan of salvation.

If He acted on the basis of His own power and authority as God, then we can't follow and He cannot be our example.

Another preposterous supposition.
You are saying that ONLY IF Jesus was utterly devoid of His OWN power and authority, THEN and only then we are able to follow Him or have Him be our example in our pilgrimage or walk in the Spirit.

The Scripture says otherwise. In massive, irreducible unimpeachable quantity.

 

[PaulThomson]

refraining from doing something isn't the same as being incapable of doing something

but when we talk about for example omniscience, that's not a quantitative capability or action; it's a qualitative attribute.
i can't stop knowing the sky is blue

Do new-born babies know the sky is blue? What if you were God and became a new-born baby?

 

[posthuman]

But herein lies the problem. If He acted on the basis of His own power and authority as God, then we can't follow and He cannot be our example.

Has God asked us to be omniscient or omnipotent?
He has only asked us to love mercy, to do justly, and to walk humbly before Him.

it isn't our responsibility to die for the sins of the world or to perform all the signs that signify the Messiah; not every thing He did and does is for us to follow.

John 13:36​

Simon Peter said to Him, ​

"Lord, where are You going?" ​

Jesus answered him, ​

"Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward."​

 

[Mem]

Philippians 2:6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped ...8...He humbled Himself and became obedient to death.

Jesus refrained from exerting His will as God. "not My will, but Yours be done," because, well, God can do that. So, although He can (no there is no "and" here) will everyone to be saved, He refrains from exerting His will that everyone in all places repent to leave room for choice. We can hope to be saved but must trust God for salvation because we have no capability to be saved apart from our hope in (the form of God) Jesus.