Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[kinda]

I don't remember where you acknowledged the distinction between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I just wanted to confirm that they are very different entities and they have nothing in common

I'm curious, since I don't know why someone would say, that the Catholic Church is very different, than the Roman Catholic Church? Please explain. Also, please throw in your insights on how the Irish Catholic Church is comparable, or not the same in your view.

Thanks!


"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with 1.378 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2021. It is among the world's oldest and largest international institutions, and has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilization." wiki

 

[rogerg]

You say - "Those whom Christ paid for (bought) must be saved or He is not the Saviour." What is your scripture to support that opinion.

Maybe a better reply would have been to say that the Saviour must be the one who saves and does so fully and completely. If He
doesn't, can't or won't do that, then He isn't the Saviour. But Christ did do that and did so to perfection.

[2Pe 3:18 KJV]
18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[Heb 7:22, 24-25 KJV]
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[selahsays]

But the false teachers are the elect, who have gone astray according to this verse.

The false teachers are not the Elect.

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.”

These people were the elect, it says the Lord bought them. And then they brought destruction on themselves. So they were "saved" then "destroyed".

No, I don’t believe so. The them are the false proohets.

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.”

These people were the elect, it says the Lord bought them. And then they brought destruction on themselves. So they were "saved" then "destroyed".

I certainly understand what you’re saying. …and I’m at a loss; I don’t understand it. Right now, I’m studying…

 

[selahsays]

The false teachers are not the Elect.


No, I don’t believe so. The them are the false proohets.

I certainly understand what you’re saying. …and I’m at a loss; I don’t understand it. Right now, I’m studying…

…..
“The Lord That bought them” doesn’t make sense to me because ”them” refers to the false prophets and false prophets cannot be of the Elect. God in His foreknowledge of each one of them would never have elected them to begin with. So, ??? … I don’t know.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

…..
“The Lord That bought them” doesn’t make sense to me because ”them” refers to the false prophets and false prophets cannot be of the Elect. God in His foreknowledge of each one of them would never have elected them to begin with. So, ??? … I don’t know.

. All theese can be elect here to


1 Corinthians 10:1-15

New International Version



Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

 

[selahsays]

. All theese can be elect here to


1 Corinthians 10:1-15

New International Version



Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.

Well, as far as I know, no one knows whether or not they are Elect, except God. All followers of Jesus are God’s holy people—Elect.

 

[PaulThomson]

Maybe a better reply would have been to say that the Saviour must be the one who saves and does so fully and completely. If He doesn't, can't or won't do that, then He isn't the Saviour. But Christ did do that and did so to perfection.

[2Pe 3:18 KJV]
18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[Heb 7:22, 24-25 KJV]
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

When you say: "Maybe a better reply would have been to say that the Saviour must be the one who saves and does so fully and completely. If He doesn't, can't or won't do that, then He isn't the Saviour. But Christ did do that and did so to perfection."

Your proof texts don't say that Christ saves and does so fully and completely in every case. Heb. 7:25 says he only saves to the uttermost (that is fully and completely) those who come to God by [putting faith in] Jesus Christ. Those who don't come to God by Jesus Christ don't get saved to the uttermost. They have been saved from their sins through the atonement, just as all Israel were saved out of Egypt by the Passover Lamb; but they have not entered into the promise, just as most of those who escaped Egypt did not enter Canaan.

You have yet to give any scripture that says Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost all those He atoned for.

 

[rogerg]

When you say: "Maybe a better reply would have been to say that the Saviour must be the one who saves and does so fully and completely. If He doesn't, can't or won't do that, then He isn't the Saviour. But Christ did do that and did so to perfection."

Your proof texts don't say that Christ saves and does so fully and completely in every case. Heb. 7:25 says he only saves to the uttermost (that is fully and completely) those who come to God by [putting faith in] Jesus Christ. Those who don't come to God by Jesus Christ don't get saved to the uttermost. They have been saved from their sins through the atonement, just as all Israel were saved out of Egypt by the Passover Lamb; but they have not entered into the promise, just as most of those who escaped Egypt did not enter Canaan.

You have yet to give any scripture that says Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost all those He atoned for.

Did you read my post prior to that one?

 

[PaulThomson]

…..
“The Lord That bought them” doesn’t make sense to me because ”them” refers to the false prophets and false prophets cannot be of the Elect. God in His foreknowledge of each one of them would never have elected them to begin with. So, ??? … I don’t know.

I would suggest you check you underlying assumptions and jettison any that are not clearly stated in scripture.

Your assumption that foreknowledge is exhaustive, for instance.
And your assumption that this foreknowledge issues from eternity past, as well.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Well, as far as I know, no one knows whether or not they are Elect, except God. All followers of Jesus are God’s holy people—Elect. View attachment 263040

But who is elect after there saved, is it there life or his life ❤️

The problem is the meaning.

Like when you hear the word, say the elect can't be decieved.

Should it be them or him, his life living in them.

 

[PaulThomson]

I think just Christ's title of Saviour should inform us of all that we need to know about salvation and of how it occurs. Nevertheless,
the Bible is full of them. Off the top I think these inform us of that. I just woke up and not thinking too clearly right now so there may be other better ones to demonstrate that. After I have coffee and wake up, I'll try to recall others, but I think the below should suffice for now.

[2Ti 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

[Isa 53:6 KJV]
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Jhn 10:28 KJV]
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

[Rom 6:23 KJV]
23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Tit 2:14 KJV]
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Which of these texts are you claiming say that only those in the church were atoned for?

 

[Cameron143]

But it does here brother, I continued the text, hell is where these prophets end up. So in light of Calvinism, how can that be so. Since Calvinism is what we are discussing. Not trying to snap at you. btw Just these verses are quite clear that the false prophets had once been saved, bought, with Christs blood but turned aside. They brought swift destruction upon themselves. The end for them is hell.

If hell is their home, they cannot have been saved. So when it is spoken of being bought, this would be the testimony of the false teachers, who would actually be denying this by their actions. This is how you know they are false teachers.
There is security for believers. This is not so because believers are so faithful, but that God is faithful. He keeps His own. No one can take them out of Jesus' hand, or the Father's.
I'll grant you that a simple reading of the verses seems to suggest as you say, but one would have to deny the faithfulness of God if the verses mean as you say. It would mean something or someone could, in this case a false preacher, could separate a believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Romans 8 goes to great lengths to make the point that this is not possible.
Perhaps ask yourself this: how does someone in Christ get out of Christ, and how does someone become unborn again?

 

[rogerg]

Which of these texts are you claiming say that only those in the church were atoned for?

I didn't use the word "church".
But I think that this verse shows that all whom the Father gave to Christ without exception, will be raised on the last day. They could be considered Christ's true church.
There are others in the post I think that say the same thing.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[selahsays]

I would suggest you check you underlying assumptions and jettison any that are not clearly stated in scripture.

Your assumption that foreknowledge is exhaustive, for instance.
And your assumption that this foreknowledge issues from eternity past, as well.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

- Romans 8:28-30,33

 

[PaulThomson]

If hell is their home, they cannot have been saved. So when it is spoken of being bought, this would be the testimony of the false teachers, who would actually be denying this by their actions. This is how you know they are false teachers.
There is security for believers. This is not so because believers are so faithful, but that God is faithful. He keeps His own. No one can take them out of Jesus' hand, or the Father's.
I'll grant you that a simple reading of the verses seems to suggest as you say, but one would have to deny the faithfulness of God if the verses mean as you say. It would mean something or someone could, in this case a false preacher, could separate a believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Romans 8 goes to great lengths to make the point that this is not possible.

Perhaps ask yourself this: how does someone in Christ get out of Christ, and how does someone become unborn again?

No. One would have to deny Calvinism, and you can't have that.

Perhaps ask yourself this: how does a son get stoned to death by his parents and lose his inheritance under the Mosaic law?

 

[PaulThomson]

I didn't use the word "church".
But I think that this verse shows that all whom the Father gave to Christ without exception, will be raised on the last day. They could be considered Christ's true church.
There are others in the post I think that say the same thing.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Every human that ever lived will be raise up again at the last day. Jesu bought them all with His blood. he will raise them all and judge them all. Those who refused to trust Him will be condemned. Those who trusted in Him will be glorified.

That verse does not say only the elect will be raised on the last day.

 

[PaulThomson]

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

- Romans 8:28-30,33

That scripture supports neither assumption. Your assumptions are driving your understanding of that text.

 

[rogerg]

Every human that ever lived will be raise up again at the last day. Jesu bought them all with His blood. he will raise them all and judge them all. Those who refused to trust Him will be condemned. Those who trusted in Him will be glorified.

That verse does not say only the elect will be raised on the last day.

It does say that. It says, "all of which he hath given me".
To be raised up, biblically speaking, is to be given eternal life. Consider that verse in conjunction with these verses:

[2Co 4:14-15 KJV]
14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

[Jhn 6:40 KJV] 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Cameron143]

No. One would have to deny Calvinism, and you can't have that.

Perhaps ask yourself this: how does a son get stoned to death by his parents and lose his inheritance under the Mosaic law?

You and others have Calvin on the brain. I've never mentioned him. I have shared scripture. So tell me, what can separate a believer from the love of God IN CHRIST JESUS?

 

[Cameron143]

No. One would have to deny Calvinism, and you can't have that.

Perhaps ask yourself this: how does a son get stoned to death by his parents and lose his inheritance under the Mosaic law?

He wasn't in Christ.