All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[The_old_guy]

This concept has bothered me for quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas of how we justify the two below, and apparently opposing concepts?

Romans 9:27 NLT – “And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
Romans 11:25-26 NLT – “I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.”

I'm studying this as I write, so any ideas would be helpful. Thanks!

And those of you who want to fight and nit-pick . . . please don't participate. You suck the joy right out of what we're trying to accomplish, here.

It's very difficult to interpret future prophecies until they have been fulfilled. Witness the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus. Christians could see the fulfillments, but they were hard to interpret when they were made. My advice is, "Wait and see."

 

[ewq1938]

I see. I misread your post. It seems your argument is that forgiveness was only available at certain points, specifically, when a sacrifice is made. Am I understanding your argument?

Usually that was the case. There are NT examples of sin being forgiven prior to the cross. I am not sure if there are any OT examples of sin being forgiven without animal blood involved. My last post was just to clarify that sin was very much forgiven in the OT not just "covered".

 

[Cameron143]

Usually that was the case. There are NT examples of sin being forgiven prior to the cross. I am not sure if there are any OT examples of sin being forgiven without animal blood involved. My last post was just to clarify that sin was very much forgiven in the OT not just "covered".

I agree that sin was both forgiven and covered...Psalm 32:1. I thought you were saying sin was not forgiven in the OT or before the cross. My original post was making this point. The invalid man who was lowered through the roof had his sins forgiven. I still believe it was all predicated by the cross.

 

[Chaps]

I agree that sin was both forgiven and covered...Psalm 32:1. I thought you were saying sin was not forgiven in the OT or before the cross. My original post was making this point. The invalid man who was lowered through the roof had his sins forgiven. I still believe it was all predicated by the cross.

I agree. I think Romans 4 spells this out very directly:

Romans 4:4–8 (ESV): Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Paul goes on to say…

Romans 4:20–25 (ESV): No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

So, for Paul, God has always used faith to provide forgiveness. The animal sacrifices and circumcisions were not what offered forgiveness because Abraham was declared righteous “by faith” before engaging in these acts and David was “credited” righteousness rather than earning it through his works. In the same way, we are children of Abraham when we also are obedient to God by “believing” in what he says. And Jesus is the Word of God and we are called to believe in him and his resurrection for our justification. Thus, by faith we are saved, just as Abraham was. And Romans 5 goes on to show how Christ’s one act that brings life is greater after as it follow MANY sins throughout history compared to Adam’s one sin that brought death to all the world.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree. I think Romans 4 spells this out very directly:



Paul goes on to say…



So, for Paul, God has always used faith to provide forgiveness. The animal sacrifices and circumcisions were not what offered forgiveness because Abraham was declared righteous “by faith” before engaging in these acts and David was “credited” righteousness rather than earning it through his works. In the same way, we are children of Abraham when we also are obedient to God by “believing” in what he says. And Jesus is the Word of God and we are called to believe in him and his resurrection for our justification. Thus, by faith we are saved, just as Abraham was. And Romans 5 goes on to show how Christ’s one act that brings life is greater after as it follow MANY sins throughout history compared to Adam’s one sin that brought death to all the world.

I believe sacrificing as God prescribed was an exercise of faith. I'm sure some believed it was the sacrifice was what brought forgiveness, but I believe it was the faith in God's promise of a future redeemer pictured in the sacrifice that led to forgiveness.

 

[Inquisitor]

I just quoted scripture that tells us it does, not me speaking...

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Read this quotation of yours again.

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

You have trouble reading a passage of scripture and understanding it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus did not take the penalty of our sins so we can continue sinning, otherwise He died in vain.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why would someone want to live with sin if we have a right relationship with Him. We need a conversion a heart change.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we stumble along the way- we should confess right away and ask Jesus to change our hearts and overcome sin and temptation. We should not be living in perpetual sin- which is breaking God's law.

Romans 6:17-18
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness.

 

[Mem]

Thus, by faith we are saved, just as Abraham was. And Romans 5 goes on to show how Christ’s one act that brings life is greater after as it follow MANY sins throughout history compared to Adam’s one sin that brought death to all the world.

I think this thought deserves some time devoted to thinking it out. If Adam's one sin brought death to all the world, by default, and Jesus' one act is greater than Adam's, then it would seem to follow that the scope of its effective can't be limited to less than that of Adam's influence upon all the world. So, if the effect is indeed limited, then how, where, or when, is it? We already know there is the running suggestion that the answer is relative to who? But should we ask what also? It seems, to me, that the answer would adequately address all these questions. Who, what, where, when, and how.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Read this quotation of yours again.

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

You have trouble reading a passage of scripture and understanding it.

No trouble, but scripture doesn't delete scripture. Sinning willfully is insulting the Spirit of grace. Grace is not a license to sin Rom 6:1-2, many think it is, but Jesus clearly says its not at His Second Coming. Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15. Guess we will all find out soon enough!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Romans 6:17-18
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness.

It has to be read in context. If one is a slave to righteousness, one would not be sinning. If one sees sin in their life, we need to do something about it. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21, we are not saved in our sins.

 

[notmyown]

we are not saved in our sins

eh? how much did you clean yourself up before you came to Christ?

 

[Rosemaryx]

eh? how much did you clean yourself up before you came to Christ?

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

eh? how much did you clean yourself up before you came to Christ?

Two different things. Christ meets us where we are, but we are not to stay in the same place once meeting Christ. We need a conversion. A new birth, becoming a new creation. If Christ is in us- we would not be hostile to His law Romans 8:7-8. That is the lost person. If in Christ we need the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus Rev 14:12- we need to walk just as Jesus walked who lived to be our example to follow 1 John 2:6 who is without sin 1 Peter 2:21-22 and died to take the penalty of sin, not so we can live in sin otherwise He had not to die. Jesus doesn't make us obey by ourselves, He gives us His Spirit to help us John 14:15-18 and His Spirit is given to those who obey Acts 5:32. It doesn't mean if we stumble along the way we don't have an Advocate who is willing to forgive us when we sin if we repent and confess and turn from sin 1 John 1:9 but as Christians we should not be a servant to sin, but a servant to righteousness Romans 6:161 John 3:7 sin separates us from God Isa 59:2 and Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21, not in sin. We can overcome through Jesus Christ.

 

[notmyown]

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

dear sister, i'm sad to see too many posters here who seem to have a low view of the Law of God, a low view of sin, and worst of all, a low view of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus. we can pray. ♥

 

[notmyown]

Two different things. Christ meets us where we are, but we are not to stay in the same place once meeting Christ. We need a conversion. A new birth, becoming a new creation. If Christ is in us- we would not be hostile to His law Romans 8:7-8. That is the lost person. If in Christ we need the faith in Jesus and the faith of Jesus Rev 14:12- we need to walk just as Jesus walked who lived to be our example to follow 1 John 2:6 who is without sin 1 Peter 2:21-22 and died to take the penalty of sin, not so we can live in sin otherwise He had not to die. Jesus doesn't make us obey by ourselves, He gives us His Spirit to help us John 14:15-18 and His Spirit is given to those who obey Acts 5:32. It doesn't mean if we stumble along the way we don't have an Advocate who is willing to forgive us when we sin if we repent and confess and turn from sin 1 John 1:9 but as Christians we should not be a servant to sin, but a servant to righteousness Romans 6:161 John 3:7 sin separates us from God Isa 59:2 and Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21, not in sin. We can overcome through Jesus Christ.

you like Matt 1:21, yet you don't appear to grasp the magnitude of the words.

does the Lord Jesus "meet us where we are", yet not save us in sin??

 

[SabbathBlessing]

dear sister, i'm sad to see too many posters here who seem to have a low view of the Law of God, a low view of sin, and worst of all, a low view of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus. we can pray. ♥

I agree with that, for sure.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

you like Matt 1:21, yet you don't appear to grasp the magnitude of the words.

does the Lord Jesus "meet us where we are", yet not save us in sin??

Do you understand sanctification? If we meet Christ- why would one want to continue in sin, that comes from another master 1 John 3:8. Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2 why would anyone want to be separated from God. Jesus came to reconcile us and showed us the way through life and death. People think He only showed the way through death, but miss what Jesus did for us through His life. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1 John 2:6, through His teachings, through His example. If you meet Christ and stay the same, its not the direction one wants to go. John 14:15 Rom 6:16 we need a conversion.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

you like Matt 1:21, yet you don't appear to grasp the magnitude of the words.

does the Lord Jesus "meet us where we are", yet not save us in sin??

When Jesus met someone in scripture and healed them- He said go and sin no more. John 8:11 Not go and sin a little or keeping going in the same direction. He meets us where we are but we should be transformed by meeting Jesus, not staying the same.

 

[notmyown]

Do you understand sanctification? If we meet Christ- why would one want to continue in sin, that comes from another master 1 John 3:8. Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2 why would anyone want to be separated from God. Jesus came to reconcile us and showed us the way through life and death. People think He only showed the way through death, but miss what Jesus did for us through His life. 1 Peter 2:21-22 1 John 2:6, through His teachings, through His example. If you meet Christ and stay the same, its not the direction one wants to go. John 14:15 Rom 6:16 we need a conversion.

i believe i do understand sanctification. it's the process in which God causes us to love what He loves, and hate what He hates. it's the process through which all His dear yet helpless children go, simply because He has set His love upon them.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ-- new creation!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This post is the pinnacle of a hypocrisy.

For merely questioning you in post #76... you accuse another brother of talking improperly, and then you accuse the whole forum of acting like wolves, and then you accuse the whole forum of having no love.


At the very onset of your views, in post #1, you try to preempt debate and silence the entire forum from debating against any of your views... IN A DEBATE FORUM. And then when someone questioned that... YOU ATTACKED HIM, AND CALLED EVERYONE HERE NAMES.


Hypocrisy:
A.) You try to silence debate, preemptively, on a debate forum.
B.) You accuse people and call them names... for the sin of... wait for it... speaking unkindly.


Kind of surreal.

.

.

Thanks for your support. It does make a person wonder why he is participating in a bible debate forum. For many years I had the same problem with, seemingly, contradicting scriptures. After the Holy Spirit within me revealed that the scriptures do harmonize, I was converted to a better understanding of the scriptures, which changes my life, and I love defending the doctrine that Jesus taught.