All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[SabbathBlessing]

So sins that haven't been paid for are forgiven?

Jesus did not take the penalty of our sins so we can continue sinning, otherwise He died in vain.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why would someone want to live with sin if we have a right relationship with Him. We need a conversion a heart change.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we stumble along the way- we should confess right away and ask Jesus to change our hearts and overcome sin and temptation. We should not be living in perpetual sin- which is breaking God's law.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's the problem with not reading ALL of the passage by Paul. You left out vs. 23, why?

23And they also,if they abide not still in unbelief,shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

See how that makes it clear that not ALL Jews will be saved? Consider how many Jews have died in their unbelief/rejection of Jesus from then to now. Those that die in their unbelief will be judged by the Law, and, as we know, that ain't gonna work out too well for them.

Romans, Chapter 2: 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans Chapter 2:12 is referring to those who, without the law, have not been born again, and those who are in the law, are born again

According to Strong's concordance saved=delivered, save=deliver, and salvation=deliverance.

Those who believe there is a spiritual God, and worship him, (the Jews that did not accept Jesus as the Savor,) are born again, and have the promise of an inheritance of eternal life.

Those Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Savor have been delivered=saved, not eternally, because they have already been saves=delivered eternally, but are delivered from their ignorance of the truth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

BTW: Scripture must always agree. If one reads all references to some question, one will discover that always does. One MUST read ALL of the scripture(s) concerning a particular subject/question.

This is true, but they, also, must be interpreted correctly, to harmonize.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus did not take the penalty of our sins so we can continue sinning, otherwise He died in vain.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why would someone want to live with sin if we have a right relationship with Him. We need a conversion a heart change.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we stumble along the way- we should confess right away and ask Jesus to change our hearts and overcome sin and temptation. We should not be living in perpetual sin- which is breaking God's law.

Never said Jesus saved us so we could continue in sin. I said confession doesn't forgive sin. You said it does. This is a false statement. Sins were paid for on the cross, and the cross is the basis for forgiveness.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Never said Jesus saved us so we could continue in sin. I said confession doesn't forgive sin. You said it does. This is a false statement. Sins were paid for on the cross, and the cross is the basis for forgiveness.

I just quoted scripture that tells us it does, not me speaking...

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, only a remnant will be saved and that would be "believing Israel" -- those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But a "remnant" out of the many Jews who will be on earth at that time will still be a large number.

As to "all Israel" God sees those who belong to the twelve tribes at all times, so "all Israel" means that every tribe will be represented in redeemed Israel. Obviously only believing Jews who have been born again are the one included. Ezekiel 48 presents all these tribes.

God does not contradict Himself, but He does expect us to rightly divide the word of truth

Jacob, whose is surnamed Israel represents spiritual Israel, which includes disobedient Israel who turned away from God and are worshiping idols, as well as the remnant (Zeph 3:11-13).

 

[Cameron143]

Nope, I just quoted scripture that tells us it does, not me speaking...

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Read more carefully. He is just to forgive the sins...because they have been paid for. It would be unjust to forgive sins that aren't paid for.
It is the justice of God that required Jesus to come in the first place if He was to have a people for Himself. Otherwise, we don't need a propitiation. Keep reading into chapter 2 of first John. You'll find it there.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Read more carefully. He is just to forgive the sins...because they have been paid for. It would be unjust to forgive sins that aren't paid for.
It is the justice of God that required Jesus to come in the first place if He was to have a people for Himself. Otherwise, we don't need a propitiation. Keep reading into chapter 2 of first John. You'll find it there.

Than there would be no need to say "IF" you confess and it does not say because they have been paid for, those are your words added, not what was in the scripture.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Jesus paid for our sins, but in order to accept this free gift we need to confess and repent. This means a change of heart and change of directions. We need a conversion. Confession is part of this process. If you don't want to confess your sins or forsake them, that's up to you, but seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Thats why we have God's law.
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Not everyone has unconfessed sins. When we do away with the law- we no longer see our sins, which puts someone in a bad spot Heb 10:26-30, because they can't proposer by going to Jesus to receive His mercy, grace and sanctification. Proverbs 28:13 1 John 1:9. Sin separates us from God Isa 59:2. God wants us close to Him and why He wrote His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 when we go away from God's law our hearts are far from Him Mat 15:3-9. God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7

I pray the same Prayer David did.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I pray the same Prayer David did.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.

I pray the Holy Spirit to help reveal any hidden sin. Between God's law and the Holy Spirit we can see our sins- confess and ask Christ to help us forsake them i.e. sanctification.

 

[Cameron143]

Than there would be no need to say "IF" you confess and it does not say because they have been paid for, those are your words added, not what was in the scripture.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

Jesus paid for our sins, but in order to accept this free gift we need to confess and repent. This means a change of heart and change of directions. We need a conversion. Confession is part of this process. If you don't want to confess your sins or forsake them, that's up to you, but seems like a bad idea to me.

You say something false, try to reason your way out of it, speak around the issue, then imply I'm somehow in a faulty and precarious position. You are so disingenuous.
Sins are forgiven only on the basis of the cross. On the cross, propitiation was made and God's wrath over the sins of all who believe was satisfied.
Confession and repentance are a response to what Christ has done. They allow for communion and intimacy with God, but they have nothing to do with the satisfaction of God's wrath which is necessary for them to be effective.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes! I pray this too. The Holy Spirit will reveal our hidden sins if we ask.

Agreed!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You say something false, try to reason your way out of it, speak around the issue, then imply I'm somehow in a faulty and precarious position. You are so disingenuous.
Sins are forgiven only on the basis of the cross. On the cross, propitiation was made and God's wrath over the sins of all who believe was satisfied.
Confession and repentance are a response to what Christ has done. They allow for communion and intimacy with God, but they have nothing to do with the satisfaction of God's wrath which is necessary for them to be effective.

Of course confession is a response to what Christ has done for us. When we sin- we should feel conviction of the Holy Spirit John 16:8 calling us out of rebellion Heb 3:7-8 the response to that is for us to confess and ask Jesus to help us overcome our sins- this is communion and intimacy with God and sorry you don't see it that way.

In order to accept the free gift of salvation it requires our cooperation. Scripture tells us what to do when we sin. We can choose to follow scripture or choose our own path. God gives us free will.

I will bypass the name-calling as more Christian growth needed, but appreciate the chat. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course confession is a response to what Christ has done for us. When we sin- we should feel conviction of the Holy Spirit John 16:8 calling us out of rebellion Heb 3:7-8 the response to that is for us to confess and ask Jesus to help us overcome our sins- this is communion and intimacy with God and sorry you don't see it that way.

In order to accept the free gift of salvation it requires our cooperation. Scripture tells us what to do when we sin. We can choose to follow scripture or choose our own path. God gives us free will.

I will bypass the name-calling as more Christian growth needed, but appreciate the chat. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Do you know what a propitiation is?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Do you know what a propitiation is?

I do.

I don't think we are going to agree on anything from our conversations, and that's okay. They usually end up in name-calling and personal attacks which is not, so I will bow out. I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.

 

[Cameron143]

I do.

I don't think we are going to agree on anything from our conversations, and that's okay. They usually end up in name-calling and personal attacks which is not, so I will bow out. I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.

I didn't call you a name. I described you based on your behavior.
Can you share what a propitiation is and why it is necessary for salvation?

 

[p_rehbein]

All the way back in Chapter 2 Paul was explaining Law vs. New Covenant Grace. This is why one can not take one verse, or even one chapter and expect to fully understand the Epistle.

Chapter 2:

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Abraham was a Chaldean.

Jesus was surely a Jew. Christ is not. There are no races in the eternal kingdom. On earth, there are only children of promise in Christ (Whose body is made up of all people who believe) and the condemned. This is why we are not to say our origin is any man on earth (“Call no man on earth your father”; father, here, means “generator”) Our origin is God in heaven. This would have been highly offensive to the Jews who extolled Abraham above all men.

When believers are called “sons of Abraham” it’s not a nod to his DNA. Its inclusion in the promises that were given to him. These promises were secured by God and His Word. This is consistent with God being our origin, our father. He is the Father of our spirits which is the same spirit of Christ. By royal understanding, Christ is our primogenitor. Therefore we may properly call Him “Father”.

“And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus was surely a Jew. Christ is not. “

Jesus is a different person from the Christ? Huh lol youve lost me brother

i thought jesus is the Christ the promised one to rise from among the children of Israel’s twelve tribes specifically the tribe of Judah ? He’s a different person from the Christ ?

brother I don’t follow the logic Jesus Christ was made of a Jewish mother all of the promises in the Old Testament eas for an Israelite messiah to be born of a virgin of the line of david

the son of man is Christ

We can’t seperate Jesus from Christ thats not really a line of thought I follow

The lion of the tribe of Judah !

“Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: Thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; Thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: From the prey, my son, thou art gone up: He stooped down, he couched as a lion, And as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is Jesus the Christ

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus isn’t” just “ a man of Judah’s tribe but he is that . He isn’t just God in heaven our creator that of heaven and earth and all that is with him it but he is that . He isn’t just a sacrificial lamb provided by God , but he is that also

He isn’t just the promised son of David but he is that man
not just the promised seed of Abraham but he also is that man he isn’t just the high priest in the order of melchezidek but also he is that man

the christ is the fulfillment of all of the promises for a perfect man the king of isreal tbat shoild come and rule forever Gods kingdom ….

We try to make Jesus just one person n tbe story he’s all of our covenant from the lord God to the sacrifice he even became the first obedient man in the New Testament

He’s all the father son and holt ghost including the Jewish messiah who would be offered to the gentiles as well tbis doesn’t mean we convert to Judaism it means thier messiahs promise was extended to all people

even in heaven jesus the christ rules Jerusalem

The messiah was a promised Jew of the tribe of Judah born under the law as a redeemer born of those people the christen of Israel with whom he made the first covenant from Sinai

the messiah would be from among their Brethren when a person says “ Jesus was a Jewish man “ this doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t everything else the Bible says he is also he’s more than we grasp from creator to savior father to sin mediator to law giver even to obedient subject of the law Jesus covers it all for us one man one name one God

 

[Aaron56]

“And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus was surely a Jew. Christ is not. “

Jesus is a different person from the Christ? Huh lol youve lost me brother

i thought jesus is the Christ the promised one to rise from among the children of Israel’s twelve tribes specifically the tribe of Judah ? He’s a different person from the Christ ?

brother I don’t follow the logic Jesus Christ was made of a Jewish mother all of the promises in the Old Testament eas for an Israelite messiah to be born of a virgin of the line of david

the son of man is Christ

We can’t seperate Jesus from Christ thats not really a line of thought I follow

The lion of the tribe of Judah !

“Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: Thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; Thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: From the prey, my son, thou art gone up: He stooped down, he couched as a lion, And as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is Jesus the Christ

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus isn’t” just “ a man of Judah’s tribe but he is that . He isn’t just God in heaven our creator that of heaven and earth and all that is with him it but he is that . He isn’t just a sacrificial lamb provided by God , but he is that also

He isn’t just the promised son of David but he is that man
not just the promised seed of Abraham but he also is that man he isn’t just the high priest in the order of melchezidek but also he is that man

the christ is the fulfillment of all of the promises for a perfect man the king of isreal tbat shoild come and rule forever Gods kingdom ….

We try to make Jesus just one person n tbe story he’s all of our covenant from the lord God to the sacrifice he even became the first obedient man in the New Testament

He’s all the father son and holt ghost including the Jewish messiah who would be offered to the gentiles as well tbis doesn’t mean we convert to Judaism it means thier messiahs promise was extended to all people

even in heaven jesus the christ rules Jerusalem

The messiah was a promised Jew of the tribe of Judah born under the law as a redeemer born of those people the christen of Israel with whom he made the first covenant from Sinai

the messiah would be from among their Brethren when a person says “ Jesus was a Jewish man “ this doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t everything else the Bible says he is also he’s more than we grasp from creator to savior father to sin mediator to law giver even to obedient subject of the law Jesus covers it all for us one man one name one God

Again. That's what it says. In this case, the meaning escapes you.

God the Son existed before time and space. He was not a Jew. He also did not have the flesh of a man. In the fullness of time, He appeared in the earth as a Jew. He died as a Jew. BUT He was resurrected with a different body, not the natural body given to Him by His mother. He was raised with an incorruptible body.

Christ is not a Jew. Christ is the preeminent Spirit that existed before time began.

P.S. Not even curious about "son of David" passage? That's not a natural lineage. He was not David's natural son by the flesh. So, what's the meaning here? Certainly not saying that David was his natural father, right?

 

[p_rehbein]

Romans Chapter 2:12 is referring to those who, without the law, have not been born again, and those who are in the law, are born again

According to Strong's concordance saved=delivered, save=deliver, and salvation=deliverance.

Those who believe there is a spiritual God, and worship him, (the Jews that did not accept Jesus as the Savor,) are born again, and have the promise of an inheritance of eternal life.

Those Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Savor have been delivered=saved, not eternally, because they have already been saves=delivered eternally, but are delivered from their ignorance of the truth.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
7:23-25 This passage does not represent the apostle as one that walked after the flesh, but as one that had it greatly at heart, not to walk so. And if there are those who abuse this passage, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction, yet serious Christians find cause to bless God for having thus provided for their support and comfort. We are not, because of the abuse of such as are blinded by their own lusts, to find fault with the scripture, or any just and well warranted interpretation of it. And no man who is not engaged in this conflict, can clearly understand the meaning of these words, or rightly judge concerning this painful conflict, which led the apostle to bemoan himself as a wretched man, constrained to what he abhorred. He could not deliver himself; and this made him the more fervently thank God for the way of salvation revealed through Jesus Christ, which promised him, in the end, deliverance from this enemy. So then, says he, I myself, with my mind, my prevailing judgement, affections, and purposes, as a regenerate man, by Divine grace, serve and obey the law of God; but with the flesh, the carnal nature, the remains of depravity, I serve the law of sin, which wars against the law of my mind. Not serving it so as to live in it, or to allow it, but as unable to free himself from it, even in his very best state, and needing to look for help and deliverance out of himself. It is evident that he thanks God for Christ, as our deliverer, as our atonement and righteousness in himself, and not because of any holiness wrought in us. He knew of no such salvation, and disowned any such title to it. He was willing to act in all points agreeable to the law, in his mind and conscience, but was hindered by indwelling sin, and never attained the perfection the law requires. What can be deliverance for a man always sinful, but the free grace of God, as offered in Christ Jesus? The power of Divine grace, and of the Holy Spirit, could root out sin from our hearts even in this life, if Divine wisdom had not otherwise thought fit. But it is suffered, that Christians might constantly feel, and understand thoroughly, the wretched state from which Divine grace saves them; might be kept from trusting in themselves; and might ever hold all their consolation and hope, from the rich and free grace of God in Christ.

Henry makes it clear that all those who abide in unbelief are lost. Not saved.