Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[PaulThomson]

in what way where people saved in the old covenant, where they saved by the blood of Jesus

Their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness, vis a vis Abraham Rom. 4:9, and Heb 11. No one is saved by the blood of Jesus. We are justified by his blood. We are saved from wrath by his life. Rom. 5:9

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness, vis a vis Abraham Rom. 4:9, and Heb 11. No one is saved by the blood of Jesus. We are justified by his blood. We are saved from wrath by his life. Rom. 5:9

saved by blood means Jesus atoned the blood of mankind in order that we could be saved and Jesus cleansed the blood of mankind by and offered his blood as an atoning sacrifice.
It was also in order that a new seed could be given to mankind at least that's how I see it anyhow.

Scripture says everyman is given a seed, so how are they totally depraved

 

[maxamir]

You can read? The Lord Jesus Christ.

FYI Mormons/Muslims and JW don't call themselves Christian's and deny the deity of Christ. stop ignoring the word of God that was proved that answered your question Found in John 3:16-18 and Romans chapter 10:9-11

Context

why can't you answer the simple question below???

Did Christ come to make salvation possible or did He come to secure salvation for His people?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

why can't you answer the simple question below???

Did Christ come to make salvation possible or did He come to secure salvation for His people?

bang bang bash bash.

Does condemning people mean your saved

 

[maxamir]

bang bang bash bash.

Does condemning people mean your saved

I do not condemn any person but do condemn heresies.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I do not condemn any person but do condemn heresies.

yeah that's your excuse for gratification

 

[PaulThomson]

saved by blood means Jesus atoned the blood of mankind in order that we could be saved and Jesus cleansed the blood of mankind by and offered his blood as an atoning sacrifice.
It was also in order that a new seed could be given to mankind at least that's how I see it anyhow.

Scripture says everyman is given a seed, so how are they totally depraved

The Bible never says saved by His blood. Our sins are removed by His blood, even before we believe in Him. But we don't automatically receive His life just because we have been forgiven. We have to believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead.

The High priest made atonement for all the people on the day of atonement. Jesus made atonement for all people at the cross. But that is not enough for all people also to be born again and receive a new spirit and the indwelling Spirit of God.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

From our perspective, we go through a process to ultimately receive a glorified, incorruptible, sinless, immortal body. All of Gods children will be resurrected and transformed in a moment, and we will finally be restored back to His image. It will be the final step into eternity and time and death will be no more.

So we go through a process, but God see it as good as done because nobody can snatch His children out of His hand. Those He purposed to save before He created the world and wrote their names in his book of life, will by no means fall away because He is the One who keeps us from falling away.

If it was just us against Satan, then nobody would endure to the end, everyone would succumb to the super powerful enemy.

None of the corpses deserve salvation more than any other one. So man has absolutely nothing to do with who is chosen for salvation and who is left in their sin. That's entirely Gods choice, He does it all from choosing to sustaining throughout the entire journey. That's why God said, salvation is of the Lord. It's not by the will of men, lest anyone boast

well it ok Charlie I'll leave you be,

Thanks for sharing your beliefs with me you seem a good person at heart. I do hope things are ok with you and i really don't want to fall out with people over doctrine. But this totally depravity I just can't accept, sorry


You know Charly the old covenant was all about teaching men to obey and repent and to believe and point people towards Christ to like you said

Some things change on the new testament but repentance and obeying remain so does believing.

Most of what I'm hearing on calvinism seems to have hyper grace osas and Calvinism all mixed into one pot, it's like a combination of many beliefs thrown in but the end result is just the same, people believe they've received salvation before there journey is complete I've yet to see much good come of this belief.

Ive always had my belief that God is with me and helps me talks to me.

But I have never believed I'm going to heaven until I get there.

I just can't bring myself to feal i can take salvation for granted.

I feel God loves me and I guess I can call that being saved by God but that's it.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The Bible never says saved by His blood. Our sins are removed by His blood, even before we believe in Him. But we don't automatically receive His life just because we have been forgiven. We have to believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead.

The High priest made atonement for all the people on the day of atonement. Jesus made atonement for all people at the cross. But that is not enough for all people also to be born again and receive a new spirit and the indwelling Spirit of God.

ok Paul thanks for sharing 😊, every Christian where I'm from know what save by the blood means or washed by the blood we mind call each other blood brothers

Or we call Jesus are blood brothers who came to save the world and did with the blood. Yeah no problem I understand you might be thinking I drink blood, thats ok to..

I will get my fangs out for tomorrow.

And put my cloak on 😊


But any way I'm saved by the blood 😊

 

[PaulThomson]

ok Paul thanks for sharing 😊, every Christian where I'm from know what save by the blood means or washed by the blood we mind call each other blood brothers

Or we call Jesus are blood brothers who came to save the world and did with the blood. Yeah no problem I understand you might be thinking I drink blood, thats ok to..

I will get my fangs out for tomorrow.

And put my cloak on 😊


But any way I'm saved by the blood 😊

There are lots of biblically unsound theological beliefs in the church. You are resorting to the fallacy of appeal to the majority.
Where does the BIBLE say we are saved by the blood?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

There are lots of biblically unsound theological beliefs in the church. You are resorting to the fallacy of appeal to the majority.
Where does the BIBLE say we are saved by the blood?

. It doesn't 😊

But thanks for statement of truth.

I'm happy to say I love you with everlasting love 😊

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

This is what the bible says

And this is also a statement of truth that stretches the imagination also spoken with love.

God help the indoctrinated

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 😊

This is a nice song me thinki

 

[Charlie_2024]

well there's lots of questions for this Charlie,

But for now I'll just stick to this , how did Cain and able know to bring an offering to the lord, and how was it possible for Cain to be told by God he could rule over sin if you don't have the power to break the curse.



He told Cain if you do what is right you will be accepted after his offering was rejected.

God saw that Cain was gloomy about his offering being rejected and the lord told him if you do what is right you will be accepted.

Then God said sin is crouching at his your door.

Why did God warn him him sin was crouching at his door.

It sounds as though you have you have interpreted the above verses as God instructing Cain on how to make his offerings acceptable to God. But if you read them carefully, you should conclude that God wasn't giving Cain instructions but He was rather, giving him a reason why his offering was rejected.

At no point did God give Cain a promise to accept his offerings in the future, if they were offered according to Gods requirements. God was actually saying, if Cains offering was acceptable He would have accepted it.

And sin was lying at the door, because his offering was unacceptable. This meant that Cains sins were not atoned for and sin desired to rule him and he would need to rule over it, to avoid being consumed by it.

This is a clear indication that Cain was not one of Gods elect, because God knows that sin always wins over those who fight it on their own, without God. Cain quickly demonstrated why man can never have victory over the power of sin, unless God fights the battle for us. Cain went on to murder his brother to prove he has no power over sin.

God never gave Cain any indication that He might accept any future offerings, even before he murdered Abel. The fact that he murdered his brother shows that he was not one of Gods elect, and as such he can never become one.

 

[Charlie_2024]

so where you just chosen before you where quickened then, is that it

I mean explain what it is you are given first to make you respond.

No, we were chosen before the world was made. But we don't collect the gift until we are born and God draws us to Himself at some stage and does the work necessary for adoption and transformation into the likeness of His Son.

We could never do the necessary work to attain salvation, and God only does this work for His children, those He chose before the foundation of the world

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

It sounds as though you have you have interpreted the above verses as God instructing Cain on how to make his offerings acceptable to God. But if you read them carefully, you should conclude that God wasn't giving Cain instructions but He was rather, giving him a reason why his offering was rejected.

At no point did God give Cain a promise to accept his offerings in the future, if they were offered according to Gods requirements. God was actually saying, if Cains offering was acceptable He would have accepted it.

And sin was lying at the door, because his offering was unacceptable. This meant that Cains sins were not atoned for and sin desired to rule him and he would need to rule over it, to avoid being consumed by it.

This is a clear indication that Cain was not one of Gods elect, because God knows that sin always wins over those who fight it on their own, without God. Cain quickly demonstrated why man can never have victory over the power of sin, unless God fights the battle for us. Cain went on to murder his brother to prove he has no power over sin.

God never gave Cain any indication that He might accept any future offerings, even before he murdered Abel. The fact that he murdered his brother shows that he was not one of Gods elect, and as such he can never become one.

ok well this is has nothing to with what I asked but thanks for sharing 😊

It's been a wonderful magical mystery ride.

I'm of to go and play dodgems.on the motorways now so wish me look, as I'm driving a 40 ton articulate lorry today


Should be fun it's a bit windy

Just say a prayer for the pigeons Ty and my windscreen.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

No, we were chosen before the world was made. But we don't collect the gift until we are born and God draws us to Himself at some stage and does the work necessary for adoption and transformation into the likeness of His Son.

We could never do the necessary work to attain salvation, and God only does this work for His children, those He chose before the foundation of the world

ah the prize I know that one, well hopefully ill run a good race today, you keep your chin up buddy.

And play nice you'll get there in the end that's what I always say

 

[Charlie_2024]

well it ok Charlie I'll leave you be,

Thanks for sharing your beliefs with me you seem a good person at heart. I do hope things are ok with you and i really don't want to fall out with people over doctrine. But this totally depravity I just can't accept, sorry


You know Charly the old covenant was all about teaching men to obey and repent and to believe and point people towards Christ to like you said

Some things change on the new testament but repentance and obeying remain so does believing.

Most of what I'm hearing on calvinism seems to have hyper grace osas and Calvinism all mixed into one pot, it's like a combination of many beliefs thrown in but the end result is just the same, people believe they've received salvation before there journey is complete I've yet to see much good come of this belief.

Ive always had my belief that God is with me and helps me talks to me.

But I have never believed I'm going to heaven until I get there.

I just can't bring myself to feal i can take salvation for granted.

I feel God loves me and I guess I can call that being saved by God but that's it.

You've summed up the two opposing Church interpretations of the gospel very well. Those of us who believe in election and predestination, are absolutely 100% sure we are saved and nothing can snatch us out of Gods hand.

The other camp, relies on mans will to endure to the end and then finally receive salvation. This is not what my bible teaches or supports, because it's a man centered gospel where man is the master of his destiny rather than God

The other

 

[Charlie_2024]

ok well this is has nothing to with what I asked but thanks for sharing 😊

It's been a wonderful magical mystery ride.

I'm of to go and play dodgems.on the motorways now so wish me look, as I'm driving a 40 ton articulate lorry today


Should be fun it's a bit windy

Just say a prayer for the pigeons Ty and my windscreen.

I'll pray that God grants you patience so you don't lose your temper and turn the rigg into a weapon. I personally struggle with road rage, I've had too many fist fights so I couldn't be a professional driver. I would finish up like that truck driver from the movie DUEL

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'll pray that God grants you patience so you don't lose your temper and turn the rigg into a weapon. I personally struggle with road rage, I've had too many fist fights so I couldn't be a professional driver. I would finish up like that truck driver from the movie DUEL

cheers Charlie. I've had a few myself 😊 always hit first when you see one coming that's what I say
I'll chat soon again with ya.

I'll do my best to pay your faith more respect in the future.

I always did to be honest until a two weeks ago.

But then I came across this tulip doctrine.. I've even ended up speaking ill of the dead because of it, I just hope God will forgive me.

Well it was time for me to have a break now come back and talk about it when I've digested total depravity.
I suppose really tho the way to look at it is, total depravity is nothing more than being subject to God's will.

Where I've lost my head with it is those who may be suffering thinking God has will totally deprave them.

It's like for the last two weeks I've started getting indoctrinated with a doctrine again total depravity.

But that was then I would rather go back to thinking Calvinist are nice people really.

I never had an idea tulip existed.

But anyhow it does now. So I'll just duck and dive with it.

Maybe do bit of jive talking. Get myself a few beers tonight and have good old chuckled of how lucky to not be fully depraved as I have a couple of bees with some buddies and I'll say a pray for ya Charlie and hope you manage to not bite right through your tongue like I did last time I lost my temper 😊

 

[rogerg]

I would ask you about first Peter 2:9 Is Peter speaking to those who are already saved? And if so they are the elect; what was the meaning of this in 2 Peter 1:10-11

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, CS1, I'm a little confused by the above post. Do those questions play into our discussion of what constitutes a Saviour, or
have you moved on to something new? If you'd like to move on, I would be interested to know if you still hold to your original
POV regarding the Saviour. I think it important to know because it would be difficult to discuss subsequent points that would be built upon that without first establishing a common foundation.