Predestination is misunderstood...

[maxamir]

Yes, you are correct!

There are only 2 choices…

the path of Life which is in Christ alone. Those that choose Jesus Christ and believe in Him for salvation are predestined to receive eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

Those that reject Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and King by denying and not believing in God’s power of His Blood and Body to save… they are choosing the path that is predestined to end in Death, eternal death.

It is God’s Will that all choose the path of Life but, the choice is ours to make.

God said, “I set before you Life and Death, choose Life.”

With our free will, we make our choice.

To imply that man has the moral will to choose God is to contradict the Scriptures which make it very plain that no one seeks God (Rom 3:11) because man loves the darkness and hates the light (John 3:19) that man's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9) and does only evil continually (Gen 6:5) which is why it is impossible for man to choose God to be saved (Mark 10:26-27) and it is only be grace that God has chosen His people to be saved who choose Him only because He first chose them.

Therefore do not ask yourself whether you have chosen God but whether He has chosen you!

Psa 65:4a Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

Joh 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit,

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

 

[maxamir]

It seems to me one of the problems is that people think the Cross saves us. It doesn't, leastwise not directly. It deals with the issue of sin which is what prevented God from saving us. He cannot overlook unrighteousness or He would compromise His justice. Once Christ paid the price for our sin, God was free to deal with us according to our positive or negative response on the basis of Justice. This is why Christ could die for all people even though all people are not saved. No longer are people condemned on the basis of Adam's sin but now on the basis of their own unbelief. And before anyone jumps up and wants to say I must mean then we are saved on the basis of our believing, forget it. It is God's determination to save those who believe and is the reason we are saved.

and here you have proven that you do not yet understand grace for you have made salvation ultimately conditional upon what a person does and not who Christ is and what He has done to secure salvation for His people. He did not come to make salvation possible for spiritually dead men to somehow choose Him and by doing so you are perverting the Gospel and unless God grants you repentance you will remain under the curse trusting in your choice (Jer 17:5) and not His grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[Genez]

Just to clarify things, are you claiming that I am mentally ill? Are you implying "the few that find it" are finding eternal life?

I was not claiming that you specifically are mentally ill. Yet, too many Christians do become that way.

Few find this...

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they might have life, ​

and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10​

Everyone is equally saved. No one is "abundantly saved."

Jesus said that few find LIFE more abundantly....

Why?

​

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads ​

to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road ​

that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14​

Not every believer is willing to sacrifice all to fight the good fight . The fight for finding all the truth they require for them to be able to find themselves experiencing the Life that Jesus came to give.

Many settle into some church where they are like minded according to their flesh..

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads ​

to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road ​

that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14​

Broad is the road = too many denominations, even a thousand denominations that will contradict one another.

Why do so many fail to find it?

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." ​

That great number of teachers?

Are the "broad and wide" road to destruction.

Pray to find good pastor teacher.


grace and peace ................

 

[maxamir]

So. one is not spiritually dead before believing in Christ and becoming dead with him through faith in His death and resurrection. Otherwise we would not die with Him when we believe.

If you think man is not spiritually dead because of the Fall then you are making God out to be a liar for Adam ended up living to the ripe old age of 930!

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

 

[maxamir]

It's meaning is summed up in verse 40.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The Father reveals the Son by means of grace and people are believers or they are not. The Son separates the believers from the unbelievers in this world.

those who see the Son and believe are only those to whom it is granted by Him to do so.

Joh 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Luk 10:22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

 

[maxamir]

a song for those who trust in their supposed free will to be saved.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We disagree, but thanks for sharing.

ok ... here are some records which indicate there was sin before the law of Moses ... and that mankind knew about sin before the law of Moses:

Genesis 18:20-21 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Genesis 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

Genesis 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Exodus 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That just tells me that you are not reading from the KJV. But the natural man receiverh not the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them.

Why would I read from the kjv when it is not a translation of the "original koine Greek" written in the New Testament?
If I did as you do I would be as erroneous as you are.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Repentance is not a one-off action but a life of denying one's self and gratefully looking to Christ and submitting to the grace of God which grants sanctification and power over sin.

True love warns those who are not granted repentance and die in their sin that they will indeed perish.

And yet we still sin daily and seek forgiveness for it.

 

[Genez]

A baby can do this?

That was my point....

That is why the concept of the age of ACCOUNTABILITY comes into play with young children and infants that die..

 

[Cameron143]

ok ... here are some records which indicate there was sin before the law of Moses ... and that mankind knew about sin before the law of Moses:

Genesis 18:20-21 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Genesis 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

Genesis 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.

Exodus 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
.

Of course there was sin. But he specifically says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed. So while these verses do say sin was taking place, you haven't established that any law existed to impute sin by. Thus, it was the sin of Adam accrued to them that led to death....Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Romans 5:12.

 

[Genez]

This is how I understand the Bride of Christ…

ALL Believers in Jesus Christ are eternally saved, however, not all Believers are the Bride of Christ.

God the Father is choosing a Bride for His Son out of all the Believers.

I believe the 7 letters to the 7 churches are written to the Bride… she MUST overcome.

Much like Navy Seals have to overcome and go through more intense training and equipping than others in the Navy… all are Navy but not all are Navy Seals.

Paul never said that God chose only some of you in Him.

To be the Bride is to be like Adam's bride. Eve was bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.
Likewise, the Church will receive and identical glorious body like that of the Lord's.

What you were pointing towards was that not all in the church will live as to receive rewards.
They will still have a glorious resurrection body just the same!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder ​

will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

​

Not everyone in the Church will reign with Christ for that reason. They produced too much wood, hay, and straw.
But, the Church, all the church, is the Bride!

1 Corinthians 15:50-52

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, ​

nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, ​

but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet​

will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ​

Not just some. All will receive a body just like his own, just like Eve received a body just like Adam's.
That is why we are the Bride of Christ. Same glorious body.

grace and peace ................

 

[sawdust]

If there is a contradiction in the scriptures, then you are not interpreting the scripture correctly. They must all harmonize.

God's elect are his sheep, and only his sheep can hear and understand him (John 10:26-29).

You're the one seeing a contradiction, not me. Those who see and believe accept Him, not hard to understand. Those who believe, God saves. This is what He promised to do.

 

[sawdust]

Did Judas have a choice when he was in his mother’s womb he was predestined to betray Jesus he had a choice no he didn’t his destiny was already done

Was he predestined or was he prophesied to betray Jesus?

 

[sawdust]

and here you have proven that you do not yet understand grace for you have made salvation ultimately conditional upon what a person does and not who Christ is and what He has done to secure salvation for His people. He did not come to make salvation possible for spiritually dead men to somehow choose Him and by doing so you are perverting the Gospel and unless God grants you repentance you will remain under the curse trusting in your choice (Jer 17:5) and not His grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Context. The works Paul is speaking of here are works of the Law. There is a work to which God calls all of us.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[PaulThomson]

It's 2 different things. One is actual. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. The other is symbolic. We don't actually die. We merely express our association with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
One is definitely dead before salvation. Otherwise, why would they need to be quickened?

If you have to have at least two of everything (e.g. death = physical death or it could be that death + spirtual death) to explain your philosophy of soteriology, you are making things way too complicated and are probably back-filling holes in your theory with ad hoc rationalisations. If we are dead in our trespasses and sins, it is like saying I am dead in/with my multiple sclerosis. I have a degree of physical disability due to my MS, and I am headed for complete disability in physical death, if I am not cured. You don't put to death a dead person. Does the Bible ever call satan "dead"?

Your stating confidently, "One is definitely dead before salvation, meaning therefore since they are physically alive, this must mean spiritually dead," does not make it so. We are quickened AFTER we die with Christ through faith in His death and resurrection, and re quickened from THAT death imposed by THAT faith. Being quickened at some point in time, does not mean I was always dead before that point in time. A man has a heart attack at 2:35. He is dead. They jump start his heart electrically, and he has now been quickened. We would be quite wrong to argue he was always dead, otherwise why would they need to quicken him.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I was not claiming that you specifically are mentally ill. Yet, too many Christians do become that way.

Few find this...

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they might have life, ​

and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10​

Everyone is equally saved. No one is "abundantly saved."

Jesus said that few find LIFE more abundantly....

Why?

​

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads ​

to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road ​

that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14​

Not every believer is willing to sacrifice all to fight the good fight . The fight for finding all the truth they require for them to be able to find themselves experiencing the Life that Jesus came to give.

Many settle into some church where they are like minded according to their flesh..

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads ​

to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road ​

that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14​

Broad is the road = too many denominations, even a thousand denominations that will contradict one another.

Why do so many fail to find it?

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." ​

That great number of teachers?

Are the "broad and wide" road to destruction.

Pray to find good pastor teacher.


grace and peace ................

I believe the scriptures teach that if a person believes and worships God, they are born again, but have no knowledge of Christ's doctrine. these are the ones that enter into the wide gate. You are correct in saying that they teach false doctrines, due to their lack of knowledge. They are born again children of God, that are disobedient.

Spiritual Israel, when they turned away from God, and began to worship idols, God blinded their eyes to the knowledge of the doctrine, but he left in the midst of them a remnant that trust in the Lord (Zeph 3:11-13).

Those that enter the strait gate and narrow way, that leads to an abundant and peaceful life as they sojourn here on earth, are the remnant

I believe the wheel within a wheel harmonizes with this; The outer larger wheel being the wide gate, and the inner smaller wheel being the remnant (Ezk 10, especially verse 10)

 

[PaulThomson]

Of course there was sin. But he speci"cally says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed. So while these verses do say sin was taking place, you haven't established that any law existed to impute sin by. Thus, it was the sin of Adam accrued to them that led to death....Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Romans 5:12.

It says death passed to all men because of Adam's sin. It does not say that sin or guilt passed to all men because of Adam's sin. It says all men sinned because they became mortal. "death passed to all on the basis of which, or because of which (eph hoi) all sinned."

It does not say "sin passed upon all men on the basis of which, or because of which (eph' hOi) all died."

 

[PaulThomson]

Context. The works Paul is speaking of here are works of the Law. There is a work to which God calls all of us.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

"That" is "hina" which means "so that", and introduces a purpose clause, not a relative clause. The text is not identifying "believing in Him whom He sent" as the work of God referred to by "this" (houto). It says "This is the work of God, so that you may believe in Him whom He sent."
"This" refers to an earlier statement in the text - "Labour... for that meat which endures forever, which the Son of Man will give to you." i.e. "Put your effort into getting to hear the word of God.... so that you may believe in Him whom He has sent."

Put your effort into getting to hear the word of God. is the work of God, the work God requires of you.

 

[PaulThomson]

Did Judas have a choice when he was in his mother’s womb he was predestined to betray Jesus he had a choice no he didn’t his destiny was already done

Yes, Judas has a choice. God chose Judas to fulfil the prophecy because Judas had made himself the kind of person who would betray a would-be Messiah preaching Jesus' message and thwarting Judas' political plans. Had Judas taken a different path God could have fulfilled the prophecies in other ways using other people, who had prepared themselves for carrying out the treachery.