Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[TheDivineWatermark]

I never said God specifically preordained someone to murder a child or any such ting. What I did say was God predestined everything according to His purpose.

In posts earlier in this thread, you said things to that effect. (Later today I can try to go back and point some of those posts of yours, where this was what it sounded as though you were conveying.)

So God does allow child murderers to do their thing to a point, He does restrain them and sometimes He allows them to do their thing.

So what you are saying here is that "God allows child murderers to do their thing, to a point" not that He SCRIPTED THEM to (before time--as in, He WROTE IT [before time] TO HAPPEN [in time], so therefore it did happen [it was "predestined" and "pre-ordained" to happen [everything was, according to that view]);

...so, when it comes to Romans 9:17 (re: Pharaoh), where it says,

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth":


--the Calvinist basically says (of this verse about Pharaoh), "[for this same purpose] have I RAISED THEE UP [/CREATED you]...";


--whereas the text itself does not convey such an idea (that has to be "READ INTO" the text--an INJECTED "idea"), but rather (more like this):
"[for this same purpose] have I raised thee up [to a position of prominence... as "Pharaoh"], that..." (in other words, using those circumstances to effect certain ends / outcomes / results; But the text does NOT say what the Calvinist insists it says, that God CREATED Pharaoh TO DO those things (as in, [before time] SCRIPTED HIM TO DO THEM [CREATED HIM TO DO THEM]... and everyone / everything else that ever takes place in this world)



See the difference?



Do you accept the "Calvinist" version of this Rom9:17 passage (since you are "Calvinist," as you say)?

 

[selahsays]

Wrong, God did say "what fellowship does light have with darkness"

Off topic

 

[selahsays]

Wrong, God did say "what fellowship does light have with darkness"

God said it. No reference to a man saying it (Calvin or Armenius).

 

[Charlie_2024]

In posts earlier in this thread, you said things to that effect. (Later today I can try to go back and point some of those posts of yours, where this was what it sounded as though you were conveying.)






So what you are saying here is that "God allows child murderers to do their thing, to a point" not that He SCRIPTED THEM to (before time--as in, He WROTE IT [before time] TO HAPPEN [in time], so therefore it did happen [it was "predestined" and "pre-ordained" to happen [everything was, according to that view]);

...so, when it comes to Romans 9:17 (re: Pharaoh), where it says,

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth":


--the Calvinist basically says (of this verse about Pharaoh), "[for this same purpose] have I RAISED THEE UP [/CREATED you]...";


--whereas the text itself does not convey such an idea (that has to be "READ INTO" the text--an INJECTED "idea"), but rather (more like this):
"[for this same purpose] have I raised thee up [to a position of prominence... as "Pharaoh"], that..." (in other words, using those circumstances to effect certain ends / outcomes / results; But the text does NOT say what the Calvinist insists it says, that God CREATED Pharaoh TO DO those things (as in, [before time] SCRIPTED HIM TO DO THEM [CREATED HIM TO DO THEM]... and everyone / everything else that ever takes place in this world)



See the difference?



Do you accept the "Calvinist" version of this Rom9:17 passage (since you are "Calvinist," as you say)?

You have misrepresented the Calvinist position, on Romans 9 we don't claim to understand God's mysterious was in dealing with individual cases. What we do know is that God is not the author of sin, yet He uses sinners to bring about His purpose in all things.

We believe that God is absolutely sovereign over every aspect of His creation and nothing can happen outside of His will. We also know that everything God does is perfectly good, righteous and just. Our problem is we observe His works and many things don't seem right or just in our eyes.

We were never given the authority to put God on trial and question His ways. We were commanded to trust and obey Him, regardless of what He does. So I don't think anyone can pretend to know the mind of God, and asking me if God predestined a child murderer to murder a particular child, is not a valid question because God never told us why He allows these things to go on.

What we do know for sure, is if God didn't allow that murder to happen it simply couldn't happen so it ultimately is Gods will for that to happen and for every other horrible thing you care to mention.

God never created any autonomous free will and free thinking creatures, everyone one can only act within the boundaries and limits which God has placed on them. So people like Judas and Lucifer, did what they did because they were created to be who they are and they can't change any more than a leopard can change it's spots.

To suggest that something can happen outside of Gods will, would be to deny what God said about His sovereignty over all things.

There's no need for Gods children to despair over anything, He fear is a sin, which shows a lack of faith in God and respect towards the enemy. Every single sin will be fully paid for and evildoers will be punished and all things will be made right, God sees that as a done deal while we still grapple with our present situation.

 

[Charlie_2024]

God said it. No reference to a man saying it (Calvin or Armenius).

Well Calvinists can't have fellowship, with anyone who doesn't believe what God said about Himself. you can include anyone you like on that list

 

[selahsays]

Well Calvinists can't have fellowship, with anyone who doesn't believe what God said about Himself. you can include anyone you like on that list

How about Christians who believe in election and predestination?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Again, all of that just proves Calvinist theology. You are misapplying verses to try and prop up the false Arminian theology.

Your first argument falls flat on it's face when it it blown away by;

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There you see the Bible proves you misused and misapplied that passage. and the following about sinning willfully also speaks about false converts, who are exposed by their wicked deeds.

Your third example also falls on it's face, because it condemns sinners and justifies Gods punishment of them in the eternal lake of fire for trampling over Gods free gift of salvation.

Please try to present relevant arguments, to debunk Calvinism. All you've done so far is support us.

“Again, all of that just proves Calvinist theology. You are misapplying verses to try and prop up the false Arminian theology. “

i do t even know what Arminian theology is haha I’m just talking about the bible and what it actually says .

which in my view ( only my own thought ) you arent interested in talking about that part I don’t think you can acknowledge what it says

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭

because if you do it sort of destroys the contrary idea that no matter what we do we’re going to achieve the same result

 

[selahsays]

@Charlie_2024

I will take another look at that tulip chart and come back with discussion of the various topics later.

I’ll start with the “T”.

I believe in total depravity (outside of the redemption found in Christ Jesus). Why? …because the Bible tells me so.

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

- Romans 3:10-12

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

- Colossians 1:21-23

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[selahsays]

I don’t believe in the “U”. I don’t believe election is unconditional; I believe it’s conditional. God knew us in the age before this one and knows each one of us intimately (foreknowledge).

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30

 

[selahsays]

I don’t believe in the “L” (limited atonement)

God died for the whole wide world!
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

- John 3:16-17

 

[selahsays]

I believe in the “I”. Grace IS irresistible!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

- Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[selahsays]

I believe in the “P”. The perseverance of the saints!
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

- John 10:27-29

 

[CS1]

Another cheap stunt, making private observations without any biblical foundation or support is like showing me your filthy rags. I'm not interested in anybody's dirty laundry, I'm only interested in what God said about the matter.

I don't know who you are, so I have to reject your private opinion as it contradicts everything that God said. So you put m in a hard place, where I have to make the difficult decision to choose whom I should believe. My mother told me not to trust strangers, especially when they offer free private opinions.

Really?

Which is cheap to you, my comment that "The Lord Jesus Christ, who is greater than John Calvin."

Jesus Christ is Lord, and the only means of salvation, and HIS Gospel is to be preached. Jesus did not teach "election" over being a servant. Many, including I, provided many scriptures to support That Jesus is the only way and Not Calvinism. You attack, name call, and do not accept that.

Please listen to your Mother, she is right, just don't get mad when we don't listen to you ...... Stranger

 

[Charlie_2024]

How about Christians who believe in election and predestination?

Well God claims that election and predestination are what He does, you can't miss that. He says it over and over throughout the entire Bible. I guess we can close our eyes and ignore it or we can accept it, it all comes down to individual preferences. God can say whatever He wants but it means nothing if we ignore it.

 

[Charlie_2024]

How about Christians who believe in election and predestination?

Well Christians who believe that are Calvinists, whether they know it or not.

 

[Charlie_2024]

“Again, all of that just proves Calvinist theology. You are misapplying verses to try and prop up the false Arminian theology. “

i do t even know what Arminian theology is haha I’m just talking about the bible and what it actually says .

which in my view ( only my own thought ) you arent interested in talking about that part I don’t think you can acknowledge what it says

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭

because if you do it sort of destroys the contrary idea that no matter what we do we’re going to achieve the same result

Funny how your theology is 100% Arminian, yet you say you don't know what it is. Well now you know, just refer to your private interpretation and you'll find Arminius was the one who invented it.

I believe you would benefit greatly by reading this short summary of what Calvinism and Arminianism is. It will equip you with the facts so you'll be able to make an informed decision about which of the two is biblically correct.

https://michaelincontext.com/define-reformed-calvinism-arminianism/

 

[Charlie_2024]

@Charlie_2024

I’ll start with the “T”.

I believe in total depravity (outside of the redemption found in Christ Jesus). Why? …because the Bible tells me so.

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

- Romans 3:10-12

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

- Colossians 1:21-23

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:1-10

Total depravity outside of the body of Christ, is biblically sound. The outstanding issue here is, all are born into this world outside of the body of Christ. God said "all have sinned". So nobody is born in a regenerated, converted, sanctified and transformed state.

We are all born outside the body of Christ and unwilling and unable to come to repentance, unless God draws us to Himself and grants us repentance and saving faith. Nobody can turn from their sin, unless God grants them repentance and they are born again and the Holy Spirit indwells them.

I can't find anything in the bible which would attribute any part of salvation to man, it's is all of God from start to finish. Man contributes absolutely nothing to his salvation. This is why the bible doctrine of election and predestination, are indispensable. They can't be swept under the carpet

 

[Charlie_2024]

Really?

Which is cheap to you, my comment that "The Lord Jesus Christ, who is greater than John Calvin."

Jesus Christ is Lord, and the only means of salvation, and HIS Gospel is to be preached. Jesus did not teach "election" over being a servant. Many, including I, provided many scriptures to support That Jesus is the only way and Not Calvinism. You attack, name call, and do not accept that.

Please listen to your Mother, she is right, just don't get mad when we don't listen to you ...... Stranger

You still haven't presented any biblical evidence to show that Calvinism is not biblically correct. As I mentioned before, Jesus has been silent for 2000 years. He hasn't spoken a single word to men in all that time, so all we have is the same old scriptures to work with.

I take it you're a sheep judging by your theology, you don't sound like a shepherd. Every single Christian must have a shepherd to lead them or they will be devoured by the hungry lion in one minute.

You refer to His gospel, but the problem with that is you haven't identified which of the 40 conflicting versions you believe. Jesus did preach One Gospel, but wicked men have ended up inventing 40 different and opposing versions. 39 are false and only one is true.

Just before you try to convince me that your shepherd convinced you that he has cracked the code and found the one and only true interpretation which is biblically correct, consider that the other 39 shepherds told their sheep that theirs is the only true interpretation and the rest are all Devils in sheep's clothing.

It is evident to me that your theology is incoherent and doesn't line up with the bible, so my question is how do you know that your shepherd is not a Devil in sheep's clothing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

unless God draws us to Himself

Note carefully the following verses:


-- Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me [/Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




... and then chronologically later (just before going to the Cross), Jesus said...




-- Jn12:32
And I [Jesus], if I am lifted up from the earth [speaking of the Cross (just future to His saying this)], will draw [future tense] all to Myself."







____________

A few things:


1) Do you see the differences between these two texts?; and


2) I notice that you seem to have LEFT OUT JESUS ALTOGETHER in your quote above (unless you meant "Jesus" in the words you were saying regarding who does the "draw[-ing]" in your quote [at top]--perhaps you could clarify this point, indicating your intention here? Did you mean God the Father [as in Jn6:44] or God the Son / Jesus [as in Jn12:32]?); and


3) Do you believe the "future tense" (in Jn12:32) has any impact whatsoever on how one views the text itself and what exactly it is conveying?

 

[selahsays]

Well God claims that election and predestination are what He does, you can't miss that. He says it over and over throughout the entire Bible. I guess we can close our eyes and ignore it or we can accept it, it all comes down to individual preferences. God can say whatever He wants but it means nothing if we ignore it.

Well I certainly believe my Shepherd when He teaches about election and predestination.