Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[Charlie_2024]

Not according to your viewpoint as you expressed it earlier in this thread. According to you, God (before time) WROTE OUT EVERYTHING that would EVER TAKE PLACE, and then put it into motion. It's ALL A SCRIPT, according to you. Therefore, no choices / volition by ANYONE EVER (believer or not). That's the picture you've presented (as to what you believe) throughout this thread, in a number of posts.

I was trying to be polite, but if you want the awful truth then. I will say you must be a Calvinist if you are a true Christian, I firmly believe that but I'm not here to force my theology down anyone's throat.

As I've stated over an over, please find a fault with Calvinism and I'll jump over to your Arminianism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My bible tells me that God predestined everything before He created anything.

Let's look at the texts themselves

(you're suggesting these passages, using this word, are SAYING that GOD WROTE THE SCRIPT THAT that young child who was molested a year ago WAS BECAUSE HE WROTE IT IN THE SCRIPT, TO OCCUR! [before time existed]). I'm saying, these passages say NO SUCH THING (your "idea" INJECTED INTO these texts, is what is saying such a thing):

Act 4:28
to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. [referring to what THAT CONTEXT was covering!]

Rom 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1Co 2:7
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

Eph 1:5
[fn]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [fn]kind intention of His will,

Eph 1:11
[fn]also we [fn]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

find a fault with Calvinism and I'll jump over to your Arminianism

[is this considered "slander"?] I've already stated, no we can NOT "lose [or forfeit] salvation".

Therefore, I am NOT "Arminianist," though you falsely accuse me of being one.




I am NOT a Calvinist either (I just explained one or two reasons why, in the preceding posts... I do NOT say what the Calvinist says about the verses we've covered thus far, in the thread, taking one passage at a time... till it sinks in that I CANNOT POSSIBLY be a "Calvinist" either because I do not believe what they believe about these specific texts and what they ACTUALLY say)

 

[Charlie_2024]

But the text in Ephesians (which you have no quibble with CHANGING) actually states instead, "chosen us in Him [/in Christ] before the foundation of the world" (context: vv.20-23 - "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," IN WHICH there is neither Jew nor Gentile in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"--this was NOT the case / true of Israel in the OT era, see [there were some who believed, however])





[let the reader note: Charlie has no qualms over LEAVING OFF the word "in Him [/in Christ]" and CHANGING "US" to something else ^ ]

Well the US is the body of Christ, God's children from all time. I can't see why your having a problem accepting that. You must be one of these who hold to the unbiblical dispensational view.

The truth is every single saved person, is in Christ including those who are yet to be born. They have all been in Christ before the world was created. Those of the old covenant were saved by what Jesus did on the cross for them, before He was born. Now you say no but God says yes, because God doesn't play by your rules.

The old testament elect put their faith in Jesus, knowing He would come into the world to ay for their transgressions. Todays elect look back in time to what He did for them on the cross. BUT EVERY SINGLE ELECT Saint was saved by what Jesus did on the cross, regardless of what age they lived in

 

[selahsays]

If those who claim to be Calvinists

I check it out, but I think your using a lot of sticky tape to hold this fragile theory together. I've spent a few years going over all the possible issues and I've come out the other side with a firm Reformed theology.

I'm not going to get into a thorough, review right now but I will get around to it and I will come back with my big gun

Well as long as you praise Jesus Christ and only admire Calvin (if you must), you’d be better off with your audience. It’s Jesus who died for you, not Calvin. Stop judging folks according to whether or not they sound like they may or may not be Calvinist. Stick to the Word of God. There are no “camps” as you say. There is only Christian. Period.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You've done that yourself repeatedly through this thread, when posting your "TULIP CHART" (which does this very thing).

I am endeavoring to EXPLAIN the passages grammatically and IN CONTEXT, rather than by INJECTING Calvinist IDEAS INTO the text / texts, as your TULIP CHART does (and which you unthinkingly "repeat").

But you can't get around the TULIP chart, because it's biblically sound. There are no holes or sticky tape used to hold it together. You would have to deny every single verse in the table to to prove that it's a false. If you did that, then you may as well call God a liar.

 

[selahsays]

I was trying to be polite, but if you want the awful truth then. I will say you must be a Calvinist if you are a true Christian, I firmly believe that but I'm not here to force my theology down anyone's throat.

As I've stated over an over, please find a fault with Calvinism and I'll jump over to your Arminianism.

Why not discuss topics instead of people?

 

[selahsays]

But you can't get around the TULIP chart, because it's biblically sound. There are no holes or sticky tape used to hold it together. You would have to deny every single verse in the table to to prove that it's a false. If you did that, then you may as well call God a liar.

Why not discuss topics instead of acronyms?

 

[selahsays]

But you can't get around the TULIP chart, because it's biblically sound. There are no holes or sticky tape used to hold it together. You would have to deny every single verse in the table to to prove that it's a false. If you did that, then you may as well call God a liar.

Discuss a topic calmly without being condescending, please.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well the US is the body of Christ, God's children from all time.

This is where I differ from you and Calvinism [/covenant theology];

I pointed out the WHEN [as to its existence] per verses 20-23 (did you read these?);

I also pointed out that believers in the nation of "Israel" (OT times) were not considered / called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (in which, there is no distinction in our standing before God "IN Christ"--"IN CHRIST" being a NT designation [for believers--that is, all those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--not found / expressed in the OT re: OT saints, though they indeed be "saints" also);

...more reasons, but I won't over-load you with too many at a time.



I'm glad to read (your post a few back) you saying you're willing to look at one of the things I presented. I appreciate your considering the matter.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Let's look at the texts themselves

(you're suggesting these passages, using this word, are SAYING that GOD WROTE THE SCRIPT THAT that young child who was molested a year ago WAS BECAUSE HE WROTE IT IN THE SCRIPT, TO OCCUR! [before time existed]). I'm saying, these passages say NO SUCH THING (your "idea" INJECTED INTO these texts, is what is saying such a thing):

Act 4:28
to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. [referring to what THAT CONTEXT was covering!]

Rom 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1Co 2:7
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

Eph 1:5
[fn]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [fn]kind intention of His will,

Eph 1:11
[fn]also we [fn]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

I never said God specifically preordained someone to murder a child or any such ting. What I did say was God predestined everything according to His purpose. So God does allow child murderers to do their thing to a point, He does restrain them and sometimes He allows them to do their thing.
I also said, God never told us why He allows these things but He did give a a reason for creating evil in the first place and that was to show off His wrath and righteous judgement and punishment.
God created Lucifer, to show His love and justice. He already planned for Lucifer to sin and become Satan and the Devil, He also planned for Adam and Eve to fall. So nothing happens by accident in Gods universe, every single creature is under His full control.

 

[Charlie_2024]

[is this considered "slander"?] I've already stated, no we can NOT "lose [or forfeit] salvation".

Therefore, I am NOT "Arminianist," though you falsely accuse me of being one.




I am NOT a Calvinist either (I just explained one or two reasons why, in the preceding posts... I do NOT say what the Calvinist says about the verses we've covered thus far, in the thread, taking one passage at a time... till it sinks in that I CANNOT POSSIBLY be a "Calvinist" either because I do not believe what they believe about these specific texts and what they ACTUALLY say)

Can you please state what it is you don't agree with Calvinism. I know someone has made up your mind before you ever investigated the accusations.
I was like you, I denied it for years without ever knowing what it teaches. I was ignorant of the facts and now I see so many shooting from the hip, before they identify the villain

 

[selahsays]

I know someone has made up your mind before you ever investigated the accusations.

presuming again

 

[Charlie_2024]

If those who claim to be Calvinists

Well as long as you praise Jesus Christ and only admire Calvin (if you must), you’d be better off with your audience. It’s Jesus who died for you, not Calvin. Stop judging folks according to whether or not they sound like they may or may not be Calvinist. Stick to the Word of God. There are no “camps” as you say. There is only Christian. Period.

I appreciate your advice, but my Minister forbids me to have any fellowship with Armenians. He said we don't consider them to be brethren, because they believe in the false man centered gospel where they save themselves instead of being saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

He said their gospel is an abomination in God's sight because they deny His Son His glory, for the work on the cross. He said they take salvation from the Lord and they dethrone God and they take His place, by claiming that salvation is not of the Lor but it's of their works instead.

He said, instead of trusting in the Lord, they trust in their ability to obey the gospel and force God to accept them. That amounts to a works based salvation, where they remove the choice from God and take it upon themselves to save themselves by their works and that robs God of His glory.

The Calvinists embraces salvation on Gods terms, so our gospel is God centered. Man can do nothing without God, especially save himself from sin

 

[Charlie_2024]

Why not discuss topics instead of acronyms?

TULIP is scripture, that means God's Word. We must embrace it no matter how bitter it is

 

[selahsays]

I appreciate your advice, but my Minister forbids me to have any fellowship with Armenians. He said we don't consider them to be brethren, because they believe in the false man centered gospel where they save themselves instead of being saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

He said their gospel is an abomination in God's sight because they deny His Son His glory, for the work on the cross. He said they take salvation from the Lord and they dethrone God and they take His place, by claiming that salvation is not of the Lor but it's of their works instead.

He said, instead of trusting in the Lord, they trust in their ability to obey the gospel and force God to accept them. That amounts to a works based salvation, where they remove the choice from God and take it upon themselves to save themselves by their works and that robs God of His glory.

The Calvinists embraces salvation on Gods terms, so our gospel is God centered. Man can do nothing without God, especially save himself from sin

I understand your last sentence; however the rest is about what a man says and not what God says. Right?

 

[selahsays]

TULIP is scripture, that means God's Word. We must embrace it no matter how bitter it is

okay—as long as God’s Word is understood in context and correctly.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Discuss a topic calmly without being condescending, please.

Hang on I'll just take a sedative. My Doctor told me not to enter into conflict with people, as it brings on anxiety attacks. Please forgive me, I don't want to upset anyone but sometimes it's unavoidable because not everyone will agree with us in this life.

There will be no more wars or conflict in heaven, so that's something to look forward to

 

[selahsays]

I will take another look at that tulip chart and come back with discussion of the various topics later.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I understand your last sentence; however the rest is about what a man says and not what God says. Right?

Wrong, God did say "what fellowship does light have with darkness"