Does Christ "dying for our sins" mean that Jesus was punished for our sins?

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LeeLoving

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#21
I guess part of the reason I'm asking is because I think it would be a lot easier for me to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15 if "Christ died for our sins" just means Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins, but I think Jesus might have just been the substitutional sacrifice for our sins (like animals used to be sacrificed for our sins, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, if I'm understanding that correctly (the KJV puts Hebrews 9:2 differently though)) and that he didn't actually take the punishment for our sins. @brightfame52 brings up something good (Isaiah 53), maybe it can be gathered from that that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? It doesn't explicitly say that though, though it does say the chastisement of our peace was upon him (and other things). I just don't get it I guess. I would really like to have a firm understanding of what Paul meant by "that Christ died for our sins" in 1 Corinthians 15:3, but it is obscure to me.
 
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Gideon300

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#22
Mar 18, 2021
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ResidentAlien said:
Again, it depends on how you define the "punishment we deserve from God." The just punishment for sinners is eternity in Hell, is it not? Jesus clearly didn't take that punishment for us. Did we all deserve to be crucified in a horrible way? Does God's word ever say the punishment for sin is death on the cross? I don't recall that. The cross was the remedy for sin, not the punishment for it.

So it boils down to what our just punishment is. Scripture says it's eternal punishment in Hell. So no, Jesus didn't take our punishment.
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I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. Scripture says that Jesus bore our sins in His body. (1 Peter 2:2). That was the body He had on earth. Where is that body now? He does not have it anymore. He has a resurrection body. It looks like the physical body but it is not. Christians also will receive the new body either when we die physically or when Jesus returns.

The means of death is not important for humanity. Everyone dies, one way or another. The death of Jesus was for much more than forgiveness of sins. It includes death to the old nature, death to the law, death to the world and emotional and physical healing. The Bible says that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, our faith is futile and we are still dead in sin (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).

Crucifixion was reserved for the worst kind of criminals and rebels against Rome. Even the worst kind of criminal can be forgiven, should they repent and believe.

God's justice demands that sin be punished. Most people think the same way. God's mercy and love sent Jesus to take the punishment that is due to us.
 
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Gideon300

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#23
LeeLoving said:
I guess part of the reason I'm asking is because I think it would be a lot easier for me to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15 if "Christ died for our sins" just means Jesus died to take the punishment for our sins, but I think Jesus might have just been the substitutional sacrifice for our sins (like animals used to be sacrificed for our sins, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, if I'm understanding that correctly (the KJV puts Hebrews 9:2 differently though)) and that he didn't actually take the punishment for our sins. @brightfame52 brings up something good (Isaiah 53), maybe it can be gathered from that that Jesus took the punishment for our sins? It doesn't explicitly say that though, though it does say the chastisement of our peace was upon him (and other things). I just don't get it I guess. I would really like to have a firm understanding of what Paul meant by "that Christ died for our sins" in 1 Corinthians 15:3, but it is obscure to me.
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Ask God to reveal it to you. He will. You may have to pester Him to show that you are serious.
 
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LeeLoving

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Gideon300 said:
Ask God to reveal it to you. He will. You may have to pester Him to show that you are serious.
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That would be nice, but if someone could linguistically explain it to me using scripture in a way that makes sense to me that would also help too! I can't make the connections in my head that Jesus was punished for our sins based on what I've read. The chastisement of our peace being upon him is sort of close I guess (for me), but I can't make that leap that Jesus took the punishment for our sins, I guess I don't understand things well enough to get it if that's what it means.
 
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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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#25
Gideon300 said:
It looks like the physical body but it is not.
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Jesus, after resurrecting, went to the trouble of eating food and being handled to prove he was not a spirit only, but also flesh and bone. John 20
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Just by reading what Isaiah wrote He lived a brutal life. From His birth they were on the run to His ministry that produced rejection, despisement, layers of being hated, people always trying to trap Him, trying to accuse Him of lies, being betrayed, strong men grabbing handful's of his beard and yanking it off his face, cat of 9-tails with broken bones-metal-jagged pottery that each lash would grab his flesh and rip it to shreds yanking it from His body, jamming a crown of thorn onto his head and sinking the thorns deep into His flesh, to physically beating Him with their fists, mocking Him, making Him carry his own splintered Cross that tore into His already torn opened flesh, to hammering Him to it.

If any human had to live just a 3rd of that they would think they were cursed of God. But Jesus, He volunteered to do it.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#27
Jesus died, but death could not hold Him, but it did 3 days and 3 nights (I've read this to be sufficient time to determine that dead is dead), and death will hold as many people as it's allowed (can hell ever be 'filled up'?). And now, since Jesus died, He took the world with him, holding all of its sin, and rose again so there is now no one that death can hold if God calls them up, and He will, everyone, everyone is going to rise again either to eternal life or eternal destruction, which there is no coming back from. See, if death takes you, there is One Greater Who can snatch you back from it, because the spirit is His, and death cannot destroy the spirit, it can only destroy the body, and the spirit returns to God because it belongs to Him and He can raise you up again. However, He, God, is able to destroy both body and spirit. This life is temporal. and we have been given a body with which we can do what we will, and the wise thing is to put it to death and give it over to do God's will rather than your own. Although, that is not easy to do, indeed it is likened to warring with it. Anyway, God can destroy both body and spirit, and this is analogized by the lake of fire.
 
Mem

Mem

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If Jesus had not died, and rose again, then everyone would 'legally' have had to stay dead. I might even say that God would be bound to forfeit our spirit over to death because we'd forfeited our souls... :unsure:
... at any rate, even if that is a plausible possibility, Jesus took rightful claim back from death.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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ResidentAlien said:
Not for me it isn't.
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Yeah, some people for reasons unknown have a difficult time trying to contemplate what forever and ever means. As straight forward of a meaning forever and ever is, some still try to think there's and ending to it.

Who needs dictionaries when people can just make believe what words like forever and ever mean?
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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#32
PaulThomson said:
A closed mind is an unteachable mind.
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LOL, you don't know me, so you have no idea whether I do or don't have a closed mind. Just because I disagree with you in no way means I have a "closed mind." To me some things simply aren't worth debating; but I'm sure you'll have no problem finding someone else to teach and debate with.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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LeeLoving said:
Like is that the literal meaning of those words?

1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Hopefully what I'm asking is clear.
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“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭

He wasn’t punished he willingly saw that we were lost without him and so in his great Love towards us all he freely and willingly took our punishment upon himself , by his Will in order that we can be saved

He wasn’t a whipping boy , he was a hero who saw us without hope so he took in our plight our situation we all caused and took the punishment upon his own self . Took our place . A propitiation unto God for all the worlds sin

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭

God wants to save us even to the point of suffering terribly himself in our place to give us a chance to repent and have our sins remitted and be saved as if we never sinned at all

it is his love for us that put him on the cross his heart towards us in the same way a good father would lay down his life for his beloved son even if the son had made mistakes love towards man rules the heart of God
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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#34
PaulThomson said:
As I understand it thus far, God does not directly punish sins, but our choosing to push away God is to choose to push away His gracious protection from agents of chaos and destruction who want to harm us. So, God's punishment for sin is actually Him handing us over to the powers he has been shielding us from. Accordingly, Jesus was not directly scourged by God, but Jesus agreed to be treated as someone who had sinned our sins would be, and he was handed over by God to men and to devils to be attacked by them. The treatment we and devils inflicted on Jesus when God's restraints were removed is intended to shock us and wake us up to our perverse brokenness, that we humans could do this to such a wonderful flawless person . But God's loving willingness to suffer this abandonment to the chaotic powers is also intended to enable us with confidence to draw near to God for mercy through Christ. in communion with whom we can be healed of our perverse brokenness and grow towards becoming conformed to His image.

This, I believe, is why Paul says Jesus died "on account of our sins". (huper tOn hamartiOn hEmOn).
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This is not true, God absolutely poured out every bit of His wrath for our sins on His head. On Jesus head. This was the cup Jesus was praying be passed, but not His will but Gods be done. This was the price that had to be paid for His prefect justice to be appeased, the absolute emptying of Gods wrath on mans sin. If Jesus didn't take His wrath in full for you on that cross, then you still have it coming.(I mean this generally towards everyone, not just "you") Do you think Jesus cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me" because He wasn't forsaken on our behalf? I don't know why one would want to shy away from the completely radical nature of what went down on that cross to reconcile us back to our Creator, but is wasn't some small thing nor an easy thing, and it wasn't sinful mans blood lust for their Creator that needed to be appeased in order to reconcile us to Him again.

It was His perfect justice and love, God's perfect justice had to be upheld, forever. there's NO room for any compromise on this at all. The only way God is justice is if ALL sin is punished for all time, perfectly. This is our God. We all had it coming anyway, but God is perfect in every way. So not born of sin/Adam but of the Spirit, Jesus is born connected to God as we were created to be. But unlike Adam, Jesus is always in God's will, perfectly obedient in every way and in the Fathers will He chose to lay down His life so that we might be reconciled to Him again. The thing is that God's wrath abides on all of us who sin, it has to if He's perfect. That means that every sin that has it coming, HAS to have it coming. So how does a just and loving God uphold both perfectly? Only the cross, and only by Jesus taking the "punishment" only He didn't deserve. There's no other logical way for perfect justice and forgiveness to meet in a non-contradictory way. I blush at the misunderstanding that thinks this makes God "bad" or I've heard it said "I'd never worship a God like that, He'd be a monster". We never give any thought to how hard hard it was for the Father in this role, to not only take our punishment, but to dish it out to His own Son to complete His glorious plan. All praise to our God who is love on an incomprehensible level.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#35
Jimbone said:
This is not true, God absolutely poured out every bit of His wrath for our sins on His head. On Jesus head. This was the cup Jesus was praying be passed, but not His will but Gods be done. This was the price that had to be paid for His prefect justice to be appeased, the absolute emptying of Gods wrath on mans sin. If Jesus didn't take His wrath in full for you on that cross, then you still have it coming.(I mean this generally towards everyone, not just "you") Do you think Jesus cried "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me" because He wasn't forsaken on our behalf? I don't know why one would want to shy away from the completely radical nature of what went down on that cross to reconcile us back to our Creator, but is wasn't some small thing nor an easy thing, and it wasn't sinful mans blood lust for their Creator that needed to be appeased in order to reconcile us to Him again.

It was His perfect justice and love, God's perfect justice had to be upheld, forever. there's NO room for any compromise on this at all. The only way God is justice is if ALL sin is punished for all time, perfectly. This is our God. We all had it coming anyway, but God is perfect in every way. So not born of sin/Adam but of the Spirit, Jesus is born connected to God as we were created to be. But unlike Adam, Jesus is always in God's will, perfectly obedient in every way and in the Fathers will He chose to lay down His life so that we might be reconciled to Him again. The thing is that God's wrath abides on all of us who sin, it has to if He's perfect. That means that every sin that has it coming, HAS to have it coming. So how does a just and loving God uphold both perfectly? Only the cross, and only by Jesus taking the "punishment" only He didn't deserve. There's no other logical way for perfect justice and forgiveness to meet in a non-contradictory way. I blush at the misunderstanding that thinks this makes God "bad" or I've heard it said "I'd never worship a God like that, He'd be a monster". We never give any thought to how hard hard it was for the Father in this role, to not only take our punishment, but to dish it out to His own Son to complete His glorious plan. All praise to our God who is love on an incomprehensible level.
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Did e'er such love and sorrow meet?
 
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LeeLoving

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Sep 24, 2012
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#36
Does anyone know of any scripture that specifically says that Jesus was punished for our sins? I don't know of any that explicitly say it, though I guess it might be gleaned from Isaiah 53 (specifically that the chastisement of our peace was upon him).
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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#37
LeeLoving said:
Does anyone know of any scripture that specifically says that Jesus was punished for our sins? I don't know of any that explicitly say it, though I guess it might be gleaned from Isaiah 53 (specifically that the chastisement of our peace was upon him).
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Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Transgressions and Iniquities = Sin

And He was Wounded + Crushed for them.
 
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LeeLoving

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FollowerofShiloh said:
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Transgressions and Iniquities = Sin

And He was Wounded + Crushed for them.
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Maybe you could flesh out why those verses mean he was punished for our sins? It says the chastisement of our peace was upon him (in the KJV), does chastisement necessarily mean punishment? I guess it might be a logical understanding of it. Just struggling with it myself to be honest.

If it does mean he was punished for our sins, then it would basically be correct that Jesus was punished to death by God because of our sins, right? Since the wages of sin is death? Wasn't Jesus fulfilling the role of a sacrifice though (like how animals were sacrificed to atone for sins)? Would it be true that he was both a sacrifice and bearer of our punishment, if I'm correct with my questions?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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LeeLoving said:
Maybe you could flesh out why those verses mean he was punished for our sins? It says the chastisement of our peace was upon him (in the KJV), does chastisement necessarily mean punishment? I guess it might be a logical understanding of it. Just struggling with it myself to be honest.

If it does mean he was punished for our sins, then it would basically be correct that Jesus was punished to death by God because of our sins, right? Since the wages of sin is death? Wasn't Jesus fulfilling the role of a sacrifice though (like how animals were sacrificed to atone for sins)? Would it be true that he was both a sacrifice and bearer of our punishment, if I'm correct with my questions?
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Wounding and Crushing an "innocent man" can easily be determined as punished.
Someone Innocent does not deserve to be done as such. To do so would be punishment without real cause.
 
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LeeLoving

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FollowerofShiloh said:
Wounding and Crushing an "innocent man" can easily be determined as punished.
Someone Innocent does not deserve to be done as such. To do so would be punishment without real cause.
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Ok... but if Jesus was just fulfilling the role of a sacrifice it would explain this, and it says chastisement, not punishment. Just asking questions because I don't understand things well and don't want to believe a false gospel.
 
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