Predestination is misunderstood...

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7thMoon said:
To understand noun phrases requires both Greek and Hebrew. There are plenty nouns spelled singularly in English, but are plural without articles, but Hebrew and Greek have one article which is wrongly thought to be definite.
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Yes. You have to pick up on how each language forms words and combines words to express ideas.
 
7thMoon said:
The desire for self-preservation is not this alleged nature. But worse is the gnostic belief that it is in the body. The sin nature is voluntary and is related to separation from God. This separation is to prevent reward for sin.
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Are you all from the same seminary? Or., some church?
 
PaulThomson said:
You are committing the error of generalising one event into the case for every event.

Like saying: I only went to the movies because my mother let me go. Therefore everyone who goes to the movies has to have my mother's permission. Silly and false inductive reasoning.

oLaM (translated in the command as day) can mean a day, a season, a period of time, a lifetime, and age.... Death within 1000 years was God's decree. The means of death was not decreed. The devil is one of the means by which we die. He is a murderer, right? Do yu agree that he is a murderer?
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He cannot murder anyone unless he has permission. eg Job. If the Devil could do whatever he wanted he wouldn't be just looking for people to devour, he would be actually devouring them left, right and centre. You would have the Lord's authority as something meaningless and without power to control evil. And it's not based on one event, there are several instances where it shows demons are under the Lord's authority and cannot do whatever they want, whenever they want. That also stands true for men eg. Balaam.

The means of death was decreed, eating from the forbidden tree, iow disobedience. That disobedience had an effect on his whole person, spirit, soul and body in the day he ate. There is nothing to suggest Adam saw a day as a thousand years or that the effect of eating took time. The scripture makes it clear the effect was both immediate and over time exactly as the Lord said it would be, "on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying".

Go find yourself a decent teacher, one appointed by God and has prepared himself to do the work of God and learn what it means to be under authority because you seem to be misinformed about how authority works.
 
sawdust said:
He cannot murder anyone unless he has permission. eg Job. If the Devil could do whatever he wanted he wouldn't be just looking for people to devour, he would be actually devouring them left, right and centre. You would have the Lord's authority as something meaningless and without power to control evil. And it's not based on one event, there are several instances where it shows demons are under the Lord's authority and cannot do whatever they want, whenever they want. That also stands true for men eg. Balaam.

The means of death was decreed, eating from the forbidden tree, iow disobedience. That disobedience had an effect on his whole person, spirit, soul and body in the day he ate. There is nothing to suggest Adam saw a day as a thousand years or that the effect of eating took time. The scripture makes it clear the effect was both immediate and over time exactly as the Lord said it would be, "on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying".

Go find yourself a decent teacher, one appointed by God and has prepared himself to do the work of God and learn what it means to be under authority because you seem to be misinformed about how authority works.
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I didn't say the devil can do whatever he wants. Man has been given authority over the earth and over the devil on the earth. Man is deceived by the devil into giving over that authority to the devil. God lets man do that.
 
Genez said:
I was addressing this statement..


I was not saying anything about Satan not having been in the GARDEN.
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well I have many name according to you at present.

But if you want to get to know me on a personal level you may call me by the name lord snooty 😊
 
Cameron143 said:
Paul clearly says death reigned from Adam to Moses even though there was no law to impute sin. His conclusion is that Adam's sin must be the cause. Adam was our representative in the Adamic covenant, and his sin is our sin, his guilt legally is our guilt. Otherwise, there could have been no death from the time of Adam to Moses because there existed no law to impute sin...death passed upon all men...why?...for that all have sinned.
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The law to which Paul refers in Rom 5:13 is the law of Moses. I believe there were laws in place between the law we see in Genesis 2:17 and the law in Exodus.

In Genesis 4 we read about the offerings of Abel and Cain. As we all know, Cain's offering was not accepted by God and Abel's offering was accepted because as stated in Heb 11:4, Abel brought his offering by faith.

In order for Abel to have brought his offering by faith, Abel had to have heard the Word of God (faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God).

I believe both Cain and Abel had "heard" the Word of God ... Abel brought his offering by faith in what he had heard and Cain did not offer by faith.

Additionally, in Genesis 9 we read about God's instruction ("law") to Noah.

so, imo, there were laws for mankind to follow between the time of Adam and Eve and prior to the law of Moses.
.
 
sawdust said:
The means of death was decreed, eating from the forbidden tree, iow disobedience. That disobedience had an effect on his whole person, spirit, soul and body in the day he ate. There is nothing to suggest Adam saw a day as a thousand years or that the effect of eating took time. The scripture makes it clear the effect was both immediate and over time exactly as the Lord said it would be, "on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying
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It doesn't matter what Adam saw a day as. It matters what God saw 'oLaM as. And Peter says God sees a day as 1000 years. And Adam physically died before his 1000th year ended, iow on the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, exactly as the Lord said it would be.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
The law to which Paul refers in Rom 5:13 is the law of Moses. I believe there were laws in place between the law we see in Genesis 2:17 and the law in Exodus.

In Genesis 4 we read about the offerings of Abel and Cain. As we all know, Cain's offering was not accepted by God and Abel's offering was accepted because as stated in Heb 11:4, Abel brought his offering by faith.

In order for Abel to have brought his offering by faith, Abel had to have heard the Word of God (faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God).

I believe both Cain and Abel had "heard" the Word of God ... Abel brought his offering by faith in what he had heard and Cain did not offer by faith.

Additionally, in Genesis 9 we read about God's instruction ("law") to Noah.

so, imo, there were laws for mankind to follow between the time of Adam and Eve and prior to the law of Moses.
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What were the laws?
It's not that people didn't sin. They did. But sin wasn't imputed to them because no law was in place. And this is what Paul was pointing out. Yet despite this, people were still dying. And the only explanation is that the only attributed sin has been attributed to them.
 
Cameron143 said:
What were the laws?
It's not that people didn't sin. They did. But sin wasn't imputed to them because no law was in place. And this is what Paul was pointing out. Yet despite this, people were still dying. And the only explanation is that the only attributed sin has been attributed to them.
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well this would require an in depth examination to prove what your saying here is not completely accurate, but seeing as the bible does go round in circles, and you've already stated your exempt from going round in circles what would be the point, you'll only end the discussion as meaningless to you.

It's a shame really, circles obviously make loops
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
well this would require an in depth examination to prove what your saying here is not completely accurate, but seeing as the bible does go round in circles, and you've already stated your exempt from going round in circles what would be the point, you'll only end the discussion as meaningless to you.

It's a shame really, circles obviously make loops
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So give your examination.
And for the record, I'm not in favor of looping conversations, but loopy people are still okay.
 
Cameron143 said:
What were the laws?
It's not that people didn't sin. They did. But sin wasn't imputed to them because no law was in place. And this is what Paul was pointing out. Yet despite this, people were still dying. And the only explanation is that the only attributed sin has been attributed to them.
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Or... a created perfect man had shown himself easily deceived by the evil one into distrusting God, so God in mercy limited the life-span all that man's descendants to limit the damage any one person could do or suffer.
 
PaulThomson said:
Or... a created perfect man had shown himself easily deceived by the evil one into distrusting God, so God in mercy limited the life-span all that man's descendants to limit the damage any one person could do or suffer.
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Perfection is never ascribed to Adam. And the Bible says specifically that he wasn't deceived. Be that as it may, God certainly limited man's duration this side of the grave. And I believe one of the reasons was mercy, but you still haven't actually dealt with the meaning of the verses.
 
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