Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

It's easy for me to ignore your kabbala avatar based on witchcraft since I
have the fruit of the Spirit working within me giving me access to self control.

In Kabbalah, the Star of David can symbolize the connection between God, Israel, and the Torah.
It can also symbolize the relationship between God and people or the seven virtues (kindness,
severity, harmony, perseverance, splendor, foundation, and royalty).

That concept is bad to you?

Sounds to me? That you must hate the Israeli flag.

And, that you must hate all Jews as well, who identify with the star of David....

Not much fruit of the Spirit coming from you....

Keep digging sir....

 

[Genez]

actually this avatar is a human in need of loving 😊

More like someone in need of a victim...

Predatory.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm not calling God a liar. Babies die, it's reality. I agree they have no personal sin of their own yet they still die. You have yet to explain how that can happen.

I'm asking for someone to clarify. Since sin causes death, if they had not sinned there is no reason to believe they would die. The same with Jesus. Had our sins not been laid on Him, there is no reason to believe He would have died.

When Adam and Eve sinned, mortality was decreed upon all their descendants. Sin was not decreed upon them. Guilt was not decreed upon them. A sin nature was not decreed upon them. Death was decreed upon them. Babies are descendants of Adam and Eve. Therefore they die. Jesus was a descendant of Adam and Eve. Therefore, His body would eventually die.

 

[Cameron143]

When Adam and Eve sinned, mortality was decreed upon all their descendants. Sin was not decreed upon them. Guilt was not decreed upon them. A sin nature was not decreed upon them. Death was decreed upon them. Babies are descendants of Adam and Eve. Therefore they die. Jesus was a descendant of Adam and Eve. Therefore, His body would eventually die.

What does it mean to be dead in trespasses and sins? Does someone come into life in this condition? Was aging the only aspect of death as a result of sin?

 

[Genez]

Gods Word teaches that babies are innocent!

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

You wouldn't be calling God a liar, would you?

Now, do YOU believe that to be true?

You distort by framing a passage in such a manner to suite your angle of attack...

Reminds me of how Satan misused God's Word when tempting Jesus.

Jeremiah was dealing with rebellious Jews who were going after pagan gods.

You are confusing "worthy of death" with someone being in a state of condition that must eventually die. Big difference.

Come on, Stan. Whip out the guilt trip ploy....

Saddened to meet you.


........

 

[sawdust]

When Adam and Eve sinned, mortality was decreed upon all their descendants. Sin was not decreed upon them. Guilt was not decreed upon them. A sin nature was not decreed upon them. Death was decreed upon them. Babies are descendants of Adam and Eve. Therefore they die. Jesus was a descendant of Adam and Eve. Therefore, His body would eventually die.

If God created Adam and Eve's body to not die then some physical change must have occurred for death to reign otherwise you still have the problem that God has decreed mortality apart from sin upon babies that die without committing any personal sin of their own.

Your right, God did not decree sin upon them (or us) but sin was passed on by way of a genetic corruption in the flesh. We are not born bad (evil) but we are born wrong. Physically corrupted and spiritually dead. This is not the way God originally created humanity.

 

[Genez]

What does it mean to be dead in trespasses and sins? Does someone come into life in this condition? Was aging the only aspect of death as a result of sin?

Spiritually dead... We are born in spiritual death because the sin nature prevents God from imparting a human spirit until after all sins are forgiven, which takes place at the moment of regeneration by faith in Christ. Then God gives the human spirit to make our souls alive spiritually.

That is why Adam became a "living soul." Because, being created without a sin nature God breathed into the nostrils both a soul and human spirit, making Adam to be a "living soul."

The Hebrew says that the Lord breathed into the nostrils the breath of lives. Plural!

 

[Genez]

If God created Adam and Eve's body to not die then some physical change must have occurred for death to reign otherwise you still have the problem that God has decreed mortality apart from sin upon babies that die without committing any personal sin of their own.

Your right, God did not decree sin upon them (or us) but sin was passed on by way of a genetic corruption in the flesh. We are not born bad (evil) but we are born wrong. Physically corrupted and spiritually dead. This is not the way God originally created humanity.

God created Adam and Eve's bodies to become transformed. The first phase was for testing to see if they could go onto the transformation that would have taken place if God told them to eat from the Tree of Life.

Its just like man who now has a body now for testing.. and will be transformed into a new body after the testing determines what God will bestow on each one of us in the resurrection..

 

[sawdust]

I liked them best with Smokey Robinson.... ​

I'm too young to know.

 

[Genez]

I'm too young to know.

Right... you're too young to Smokey.

 

[PaulThomson]

What does it mean to be dead in trespasses and sins? Does someone come into life in this condition? Was aging the only aspect of death as a result of sin?

As I see it, "dead in trespasses and sins" means condemned to the second death because of one's own sins.

No. we are born innocent. We go astray from/since the womb. Some go astray from/since their youth.

Do you mean as a result of Adam's sin? Or our individual sins. The effect on Adam was also sentencing of Adam to the second death, unless he received mercy from Yahweh. The effect of Eve's sin was also sentencing of Eve to the second death unless she received mercy from Yahweh. Same for Cain and any other transgressor..

 

[PaulThomson]

If God created Adam and Eve's body to not die then some physical change must have occurred for death to reign otherwise you still have the problem that God has decreed mortality apart from sin upon babies that die without committing any personal sin of their own.

Your right, God did not decree sin upon them (or us) but sin was passed on by way of a genetic corruption in the flesh. We are not born bad (evil) but we are born wrong. Physically corrupted and spiritually dead. This is not the way God originally created humanity.

Babies who are aborted do not die because of some genetic corruption. They are innocent of having committed any sin, yet they die. They die because they were killed. That is perfectly in line with what I have been saying. nothing in scripture says humans since Adam and Eve need to sin before they can die. Nothing in scripture says humans since Adam and Eve cannot be killed before they sin.

 

[Cameron143]

As I see it, "dead in trespasses and sins" means condemned to the second death because of one's own sins.

No. we are born innocent. We go astray from/since the womb. Some go astray from/since their youth.

Do you mean as a result of Adam's sin? Or our individual sins. The effect on Adam was also sentencing of Adam to the second death, unless he received mercy from Yahweh. The effect of Eve's sin was also sentencing of Eve to the second death unless she received mercy from Yahweh. Same for Cain and any other transgressor..

The reason I asked the questions was because you said there was no guilt for Adam's sin. But it is sin that causes death. And where there is no law, sin cannot be imputed.
As there was no law from Adam to Moses, why did people die?
This is the argument Paul makes in Romans 5. If Adam's sin isn't applied to them, they would not have died.

 

[sawdust]

Babies who are aborted do not die because of some genetic corruption. They are innocent of having committed any sin, yet they die. They die because they were killed. That is perfectly in line with what I have been saying. nothing in scripture says humans since Adam and Eve need to sin before they can die. Nothing in scripture says humans since Adam and Eve cannot be killed before they sin.

Babies that are born have committed no sin either so your point is moot, anyone can be murdered.

 

[PaulThomson]

Babies that are born have committed no sin either so your point is moot, anyone can be murdered.

That is my point. Physical death does not come to us as a result of our own sin, because babies who have not sinned die. If death was because of our own sin, babies would not be able to be killed. Murder is possible because mortality was imposed on all Adam's descendants because of Adam's sin. That babies die does not prove they have a sin nature; it just proves they are mortal,.

 

[PaulThomson]

The reason I asked the questions was because you said there was no guilt for Adam's sin. But it is sin that causes death. And where there is no law, sin cannot be imputed.
As there was no law from Adam to Moses, why did people die?
This is the argument Paul makes in Romans 5. If Adam's sin isn't applied to them, they would not have died.

I believe you are misreading Paul. Because Adam sinned all die, death came upon all. All who sin sin because their mortality, their limited life span, provokes them into sinning.

 

[PaulThomson]

If God created Adam and Eve's body to not die then some physical change must have occurred for death to reign otherwise you still have the problem that God has decreed mortality apart from sin upon babies that die without committing any personal sin of their own.

Your right, God did not decree sin upon them (or us) but sin was passed on by way of a genetic corruption in the flesh. We are not born bad (evil) but we are born wrong. Physically corrupted and spiritually dead. This is not the way God originally created humanity.

Why is mortality of the body (not of soul or of spirit) without sin a justice problem for God?

 

[sawdust]

That is my point. Physical death does not come to us as a result of our own sin, because babies who have not sinned die. If death was because of our own sin, babies would not be able to be killed. Murder is possible because mortality was imposed on all Adam's descendants because of Adam's sin. That babies die does not prove they have a sin nature; it just proves they are mortal,.

Murder is possible because sin is possible. We are not talking of the sin of others killing babies (like in abortion) we are discussing how babies die without anyone committing sin against them.

Why is mortality of the body (not of soul or of spirit) without sin a justice problem for God?

Because the wages of sin is death. To die without any sin makes God a liar. He can't decree "by the way, all your children will die even if there is no sin found in them". Sin is lawlessness. Our flesh has a lawless component called the sin nature. It is why babies die even when they haven't committed any personal sin of their own. They inherit that lawlessness from their parent. Flesh begets flesh.

Show me where God decreed all are to die apart from sin?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The reason I asked the questions was because you said there was no guilt for Adam's sin. But it is sin that causes death. And where there is no law, sin cannot be imputed.
As there was no law from Adam to Moses, why did people die?
This is the argument Paul makes in Romans 5. If Adam's sin isn't applied to them, they would not have died.

It implies for others reasons.

Galatians 3:22–23

22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

So it seems when your born your held captive by something. But not sin or satan.

What are you held captive by.

It must be some part of God's will.

What would it be.

Would it be a loss of his will when you fell, like an automatic trigger that disconnected you, that put you straight in to captivity of his will.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe you are misreading Paul. Because Adam sinned all die, death came upon all. All who sin sin because their mortality, their limited life span, provokes them into sinning.

Where in scripture can I find this? And this is another topic. Paul clearly says death reigned from Adam to Moses even though there was no law to impute sin. His conclusion is that Adam's sin must be the cause. Adam was our representative in the Adamic covenant, and his sin is our sin, his guilt legally is our guilt. Otherwise, there could have been no death from the time of Adam to Moses because there existed no law to impute sin...death passed upon all men...why?...for that all have sinned.