Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[Charlie_2024]

@MerSee: Can only the elect ever be born again?


What makes either one of you think you're the elect? Does what you believe line up with what God teaches? Because if it doesn't, then you're worshipping something other than the true Jesus and are not saved.

As it is, you believe in a Jesus that doesn't offer salvation to everyone, but just a certain specific set of people. How can you have the Holy Spirit and be saved if you believe that?

I agree that God is nobody's fool, but it looks like you've fooled yourselves. It's really ironic considering this thread.


🌾

I believe I'm one of the elect of God, because God promised to save me if I put my trust in Him. And since God doesn't break His promises or lie, I know that nothing can make me lose the gift of His salvation.

My election was not something I deserved or chose. I didn't want to be converted as I enjoyed my life as a fornicator, adulterer, drug abuser, sorcerer and violent criminal.

After God regenerated me, I still kept backsliding and going back to committing those sins over and over for several years. But I felt drawn to repent on each occasion after spending a long time trying to fulfill my lust.

I never had the desire to live as a Christian Saint. I tried to resist Gods grace but He kept on showing me that sin can't satisfy, and He showed me how ugly it is and He caused me to repented of those sins on every occasion.

God forgave me every time and was restored back to the Church. I don't know why God chose to save me, while leaving many of my friends enslaved to sin. Some died of drug overdoses in their backslidden state. I'm no better than any of them and I also deserved to die, but God saved me.

God never told us why He chose to save some and leave others dead in their sin. But there is an abundance of scriptures saying that God chose His elect before He created the world. Yes Gods ways are mysterious and past finding out so it's foolish to pretend we have Him figured out.

 

[Charlie_2024]

All selected Calvinists verses but none show that God knew anyone before the foundation of the world.

You can ignore what God said if you don't like it. But that can never change what He said, I showed you the relevant verses but you chose not to acknowledge what they are saying.

I'm not interested in any private interpretation , because everyone twists God Word to make it say what they want it to say.

If God says 1+1=2 and some private guy says it equals 3, then I must reject such people and believe what God said

 

[John146]

You can ignore what God said if you don't like it. But that can never change what He said, I showed you the relevant verses but you chose not to acknowledge what they are saying.

I am full aware of what those verses are saying. Your private interpretation brings in the RCC doctrine of fatalism taught by John Calvin.

 

[John146]

God never told us why He chose to save some and leave others dead in their sin.

Maybe because it's not a biblical view.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I am full aware of what those verses are saying. Your private interpretation brings in the RCC doctrine of fatalism taught by John Calvin.

If you were fully aware of what the verses are saying, you wouldn't be denying what they are saying. You do what everyone else does when their false view is exposed. They never defend their position, they just attack the person who exposes them.

It takes a lot of courage to admit one is wrong, nobody likes it. We're all pumped up with pride and we push our private view as if it's the only correct one and condemn all others who hold to different views and interpretations.

The Church is smashed into thousands of denominations, all opposing and condemning each other. But Jesus told us to love each other, He said I want the world to see the love you have for one and other and that will attract new converts. Bu nobody cares about what Jesus commanded. Every man does what's right in his own eyes and ignores everything God said to do.

The unbelievers laugh at us, because they see a bunch of hypocrite's all trying to push their religion on others with no regard for the honor of the Lord.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Maybe because it's not a biblical view.

But it is, and you're saying God is a liar

 

[John146]

If you were fully aware of what the verses are saying, you wouldn't be denying what they are saying. You do what everyone else does when their false view is exposed. They never defend their position, they just attack the person who exposes them.

It takes a lot of courage to admit one is wrong, nobody likes it. We're all pumped up with pride and we push our private view as if it's the only correct one and condemn all others who hold to different views and interpretations.

The Church is smashed into thousands of denominations, all opposing and condemning each other. But Jesus told us to love each other, He said I want the world to see the love you have for one and other and that will attract new converts. Bu nobody cares about what Jesus commanded. Every man does what's right in his own eyes and ignores everything God said to do.

The unbelievers laugh at us, because they see a bunch of hypocrite's all trying to push their religion on others with no regard for the honor of the Lord.

Why do you care? Isn't this all part of God's determinate plan?

 

[Charlie_2024]

Why do you care? Isn't this all part of God's determinate plan?

I care about you, I pray God grants you salvation. I'm not saying your not saved, I say that just incase your not sure of your salvation. I'm not sure what you believe when it comes to being saved. Some Christians believe we can lose our salvation and other believe we can never lose it.

I just pray that God grants you the gift of His salvation which no man is worthy to receive based on his works. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[John146]

I care about you, I pray God grants you salvation. I'm not saying your not saved, I say that just incase your not sure of your salvation. I'm not sure what you believe when it comes to being saved. Some Christians believe we can lose our salvation and other believe we can never lose it.

I just pray that God grants you the gift of His salvation which no man is worthy to receive based on his works. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Brother, no need to worry about me. The Lord Jesus is my Savior and has been for some 45 years. I'm sure of my salvation because of what scripture has said concerning those who believe the gospel. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[Mem]

Yes Gods ways are mysterious and past finding out so it's foolish to pretend we have Him figured out.

We don't have to 'figure out" God, we can know God. You can know Him too, unless you continue to believe whoever you consider God who is not, you keep being told that you can 'trust' what they've told you to believe in. As Jesus said, "believe in Me," and "I speak the words My Father gave Me to speak" and He did not depart from that. The devil tried tempting Him away from it and failed.

I found three instances when Jesus said, "where I go you cannot come." The first was to the Pharisees, which He also told, "You will search for Me, but will not find Me, and you will die in your sins." The second time, He addressed, "My little children" and directed that they should love one another, and the third time He said, "you cannot come," was to Peter, and He told him, "you will come later." Then, after His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, He told Peter, "If I want that he remains until I return, what is that to you? he should tarry until I come? You follow Me."

This leaves us to 'figure out' at what (later) time did Peter "come", had he come at any point during his lifetime or was it not until his time of death, or is the time still not yet come that Peter is "where I am"? And no one can pretend that they know that answer definitively.

But that won't stop anyone from expressing their thoughts on it, including me.
At what point was Jesus referring to that Peter would "later come" but was no point of which the Pharisees would look for but not find?

One plausible possibility is the time when Jesus reinstates Peter, asking Him three times, "Do you love Me?" The third time Jesus asked, Peter was grieved because He asked the third time. But I haven't stop the reading there... Peter was grieved that Jesus asked him (the) third time, "Do you (phileis) Me?" The first two times Jesus asked if Peter (agapas) Me?" and Peter had answer twice, "Yes, Lord. You know I (philo) You."
Was this moment of grief that moment that Jesus alluded to when Peter would "come later"? The moment Peter was grieved that, for him, Jesus humbled Himself in deeming Peter's imperfect love acceptable for His service to Him. How greatly would this realization have finally humbled a rash prideful arrogant Peter to a rightful place in Christ? The moment Peter became "ok" that he is a nobody so (egapesen) by God, with a love by which we ought to love one another (1 John 4:11).

But the world (ephilei) its own.

 

[DJT_47]

No. The elect are known to God beforehand based on his foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:2

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[PaulThomson]

There's more than enough here to prove that God is not like men. He really does know everything, regardless of what men say
205
Ephesians 1:4-5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Bible Gateway ....
167 etc.

There's more than enough here to prove that God is not exactly like men. But nothing here proves He knows everything, regardless of what men say.

You are making the positive claim that these texts prove God knows everything. Therefore the burden is yours to explain how each of these texts affirm exhaustive knowledge and foreknowledge. You merely citing verses and merely claiming they cannot but confirm your conclusions, is not you proving that they do. Define what is and is not included in "everything" in your claim that God knows everything, and then start with one or two and explain your reasoning that gets you from those texts to "God knows everything." as you define "everything".

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Bible Gateway ....

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Bible Gateway
141
John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Bible Gateway
130
John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Bible Gateway
99
2 Timothy 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Bible Gateway
99
Proverbs 16:4
4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Bible Gateway
99
Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Bible Gateway
81
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Bible Gateway
75
1 Peter 1:20
20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
Bible Gateway
72
Ephesians 1:4
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Bible Gateway
61
1 Peter 1:2
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Bible Gateway
53
Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Bible Gateway
51
Ephesians 1:11-12
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Bible Gateway
51
Galatians 1:15
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Bible Gateway
45
Revelation 13:8
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Bible Gateway
45
Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Bible Gateway
42
Colossians 3:12
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Bible Gateway
42
Romans 8:33
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Titus 1:1
1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
Bible Gateway
40
Jeremiah 1:5
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Bible Gateway
39

 

[PaulThomson]

Biblical election is to service, not salvation. Christ is God's elect. Did Christ need salvation? There are elect angels, chosen to serve God's purpose. It's not wise to get theology from a RCC priest.

Do you listen to BtF?

 

[John146]

Do you listen to BtF?

Nope, what does BtF stand for?

 

[MerSee]

@MerSee: Can only the elect ever be born again?


What makes either one of you think you're the elect? Does what you believe line up with what God teaches? Because if it doesn't, then you're worshipping something other than the true Jesus and are not saved.

As it is, you believe in a Jesus that doesn't offer salvation to everyone, but just a certain specific set of people. How can you have the Holy Spirit and be saved if you believe that?

I agree that God is nobody's fool, but it looks like you've fooled yourselves. It's really ironic considering this thread.


🌾

I never said I think I am one of the elect.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Do you listen to BtF?

Better Think First

 

[PaulThomson]

Nope, what does BtF stand for?

If you did listen, you would know. I have my answer.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

If you did listen, you would know. I have my answer.

Butter the Fries?

Be the Friend?

Is it any of these?

Acronym Definition
BTF Before the Fire
BTF By the Foot (measurement)
BTF Below the Fold (publications)
BTF Brain Trauma Foundation
BTF Blessthefall (band)
BTF Brass to Face
BTF Back to the Future (movie)
BTF Berkshire Theatre Festival (Stockbridge, MA)
BTF Bally Total Fitness (various locations)
BTF Backyard Tire Fire (band)
BTF British Transport Films (UK)
BTF Biometrics Task Force (US Army)
BTF Binaytara Foundation (est. 2007)
BTF Block Trade Facility
BTF Better than Fiction
BTF Bidirectional Texture Function
BTF Blood Transfusion (more commonly seen as BT)
BTF Back to Front
BTF Big Thrill Factory (Minnesota)
BTF Behind the Firewall
BTF Buffalo Teachers Federation
BTF BizTalk Framework (Microsoft)
BTF Bridge Too Far
BTF Build To Forecast
BTF Business Task Force (various organizations)
BTF Balance Transfer Facility
BTF Biotechnology Facility
BTF Biotech Turnaround Fund (Netherlands)
BTF BACnet (Building Automation and Control Networking Protocol) Test Framework
BTF Bet The Farm (as in a bet the farm project for a company)
BTF Blue Torch Fab (off road vehicle fabricators)
BTF Bons du Trésor à Taux Fixe et à Intérêts Précomptés (French Government Bills)
BTF Big Tough Frogman (US Navy SEAL slang)
BTF Beyond the Floor (environment)
BTF Salt Lake Skypark (airport code)
BTF Boiler Tube Failure
BTF Behavioral Theory of the Firm
BTF Benzotrifuroxan (explosive)
BTF Black Terror Fighters (gaming clan)
BTF Brown Trunk Feet (height of palm tree exposed trunk)
BTF Bhangra Teams' Forum (est. 2008)
BTF Back to Fitness
BTF Bench Test Fixtures
BTF Brothers of True Fragging (Quake 2 gaming clan)
BTF Berwyn Talk Forum
BTF Bon Ton Fashionista (slogan)
BTF Beyond the Felt (poker forum)
BTF Better Than Factory (various organizations)
BTF Buy The Farm (to die or be killed)
BTF Biotechnology Technologist-Forensics (Fleming College; Ontario, Canada)
BTF Battalion Task Forces
BTF Bois des Trois Frontières (French wood supplier)
BTF BikeTechForums (motorcycle community)
BTF Buy-to-Fly Ratio (aviation industry)

 

[Charlie_2024]

Brother, no need to worry about me. The Lord Jesus is my Savior and has been for some 45 years. I'm sure of my salvation because of what scripture has said concerning those who believe the gospel. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Thank you for sharing that, it's very encouraging to hear that you trust in Gods promise to save all those who believe the gospel. i just wasn't sure if you were one of those people, who believe we can lose our salvation.

I can see you don't rely on your ability to stay saved, but you have placed your trust in the Lord to keep you from falling away. Jesus said many will fall away, just before He returns. We see Churches closing down everywhere, these days. Many who professed faith in the Lord are now saying they no longer believe and they have gone back to their old ways.

 

[Charlie_2024]

We don't have to 'figure out" God, we can know God. You can know Him too, unless you continue to believe whoever you consider God who is not, you keep being told that you can 'trust' what they've told you to believe in. As Jesus said, "believe in Me," and "I speak the words My Father gave Me to speak" and He did not depart from that. The devil tried tempting Him away from it and failed.

I found three instances when Jesus said, "where I go you cannot come." The first was to the Pharisees, which He also told, "You will search for Me, but will not find Me, and you will die in your sins." The second time, He addressed, "My little children" and directed that they should love one another, and the third time He said, "you cannot come," was to Peter, and He told him, "you will come later." Then, after His crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, He told Peter, "If I want that he remains until I return, what is that to you? he should tarry until I come? You follow Me."

This leaves us to 'figure out' at what (later) time did Peter "come", had he come at any point during his lifetime or was it not until his time of death, or is the time still not yet come that Peter is "where I am"? And no one can pretend that they know that answer definitively.

But that won't stop anyone from expressing their thoughts on it, including me.
At what point was Jesus referring to that Peter would "later come" but was no point of which the Pharisees would look for but not find?

One plausible possibility is the time when Jesus reinstates Peter, asking Him three times, "Do you love Me?" The third time Jesus asked, Peter was grieved because He asked the third time. But I haven't stop the reading there... Peter was grieved that Jesus asked him (the) third time, "Do you (phileis) Me?" The first two times Jesus asked if Peter (agapas) Me?" and Peter had answer twice, "Yes, Lord. You know I (philo) You."
Was this moment of grief that moment that Jesus alluded to when Peter would "come later"? The moment Peter was grieved that, for him, Jesus humbled Himself in deeming Peter's imperfect love acceptable for His service to Him. How greatly would this realization have finally humbled a rash prideful arrogant Peter to a rightful place in Christ? The moment Peter became "ok" that he is a nobody so (egapesen) by God, with a love by which we ought to love one another (1 John 4:11).

But the world (ephilei) its own.

We can only know those things about God, which He revealed to us about Himself in the Bible. We should never presume on the Lord, it's extremely dangerous to try to figure out those things He hid from us. Those who do this are practicing witchcraft.

We can spend our whole life, studying those thigs that God revealed to us and we still won't understand all of them. We have no right to say say, "I think God did this because of that", everyone who does this ends up lost and confused.

God commanded us to trust and obey every word that proceeds from His mouth. Who are we to put God on trial and force Him to explain His business to us. Our duty is to praise Him, even if He hands us over to the enemy to torture and kill us.

He has the right to do whatever He wants with and and we must be quite and just accept it and praise Him for it, even if it is evil.

Who are we to question why He killed billions of men women and children and babies in the womb, during the global flood and those times He ordered Israel to slaughter whole ethnic groups of people. He even ordered them to kill their animals as well.

Praise the Lord in everything He does