Predestination is misunderstood...

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FollowerofShiloh said:
Thank God His sovereignty means EVERYONE like verse 21 confirms by PAUL in Romans 8.
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try reading the rest of the verses and you will find that the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God who verse 28 prolamins are those who are the called of God and all things work together for and then read the following and let me know if every single person in the world is justified, and glorified.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 
Thunderrr-mental said:
All you doing is stripping people of God completely.

Even tho people are born spiritualy dead, there still born with a nature that needs help.

There born with something that the lord protects, which is backed up by scripture.

So much so every child born has an angel that stares back into the face of God.

Further more when Adam and eve fell and sin entered in them causing death.

They still had the Truth in them.

This means we are all born with the truth in us.

Because if where born with what our ancestors have in them in one regard like spiritual death, and inherited sin


Then it also stands to reason we are born with what ever else they have.

what you propose is people are born with absolutely nothing.

Well if that was so what would the point be in saving us.

satan has nothing because there is no truth in him at all.

We have something when where born, we still have the truth in us.
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Man retains his humanity after the Fall which includes his intellect and ability to know good and evil but is a slave to sin and Satan which is why Christ came to set His people free from this bondage. The good news is only good to those who see themselves as being completely lost and need a Saviour.
 
maxamir said:
try reading the rest of the verses and you will find that the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God who verse 28 prolamins are those who are the called of God and all things work together for and then read the following and let me know if every single person in the world is justified, and glorified.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
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Put it all together and you see verses 29/30 begin with Verses 20/21

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it,

21 in hope that the creation itself shall be freed from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

It's all one stanza. You are cherry picking but when read it all from verse 20 to 30 you see who it means, CREATION.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
The Gospel, the Sinner HEARS it like Paul said:
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation

This confirms
So Paul, in Hebrews, says LOOK to what Jesus said and what the Disciples confirmed about Salvation.

Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit
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Paul is confirming what happens to those who are saved. They hear because they are saved, they repent because they are saved, they are baptised because they are saved and they receive the Holy Spirit because they are saved and NOT to be saved which would make all these things works and kill grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
 
maxamir said:
Paul is confirming what happens to those who are saved. They hear because they are saved, they repent because they are saved, they are baptised because they are saved and they receive the Holy Spirit because they are saved and NOT to be saved which would make all these things works and kill grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
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Paul begins with "When you heard"

He's explaining how they got saved.

They were dead but "WHEN they HEARD"

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
maxamir said:
please let me know when you have the will to stop sinning and then I would consider you having a free will.
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It's not about having the will to stop sinning it's about what you do AFTER you HEAR the Gospel.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Paul begins with "When you heard"

He's explaining how they got saved.

They were dead but "WHEN they HEARD"
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We are in this box of time and from our perspective these are the things that happen in a timely order but from God's perspective outside of time these things were decreed before time. Try stepping outside of the box through Scripture and have a good look.
 
maxamir said:
We are in this box of time and from our perspective these are the things that happen in a timely order but from God's perspective outside of time these things were decreed before time. Try stepping outside of the box through Scripture and have a good look.
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Paul confirms his verses in Ephesians:

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Paul begins with "When you heard"

He's explaining how they got saved.

They were dead but "WHEN they HEARD"

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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that is the order that God has ordained but faith does not save anyone, it is grace that saves which grants that faith through the hearing of the Word.
 
maxamir said:
that is the order that God has ordained but faith does not save anyone, it is grace that saves which grants that faith through the hearing of the Word.
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Without Faith you cannot believe. So it has to happen before Belief.
Happens when you HEAR.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
It's not about having the will to stop sinning it's about what you do AFTER you HEAR the Gospel.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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If you are not a Christian then it is impossible to stop sinning but a Christian is given the power to stop sinning which they never had before.
 
maxamir said:
thank you for proving my point.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
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I didn't prove anything for your corrupt views because you don't believe until you Hear. I've always said you must HEAR first. Paul and Peter even said it.

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Without Faith you cannot believe. So it has to happen before Belief.
Happens when you HEAR.
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some people are granted to believe when they hear and others are not.

Mat_13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Mat_13:15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'
 
maxamir said:
Romans 1 also plainly teaches three times that God justly hands people over to the sin that they love and justly keeps them blinded to the truth.

Romans 3 explains why men do not choose God.
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He blinds them to the truth after showing them the truth. When men are charged under sin apart from grace they are indeed in a hopeless position, hence the ministry of the Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. Once a person is made aware of their need, then they are ready to hear the Gospel. Paul said the Law is spiritual (Rom.7:14) yet all Israel was expected to live by it whether they were believers or not. It seems to me you confuse understanding spiritual matters and hearing the word. All Israel heard the word of the Lord and were made free (by grace) to accept or reject, yet only those who were born again understood it.

Unfortunately your position of regeneration prior to receiving the Gospel has God saving men from spiritual death in order to save them from spiritual death. Pure nonsense.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
I still sin as a Christian. Free Will. Just like I had as a sinner without God.
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all Christians still sin and they hate that sin whereas before they used to love that sin and they look forward to that day when they will be completely free from the presence of sin.
 
maxamir said:
some people are granted to believe when they hear and others are not.

Mat_13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Mat_13:15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'
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Those are Parables.
We're discussing Hearing Preaching of the Gospel.
Everyone hears Preaching the Gospel.
 
maxamir said:
Man retains his humanity after the Fall which includes his intellect and ability to know good and evil but is a slave to sin and Satan which is why Christ came to set His people free from this bondage. The good news is only good to those who see themselves as being completely lost and need a Saviour.
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I would like you to show me where children are born slaves to satan.

I have scripture that shows children are born to a promise
 
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