Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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selahsays said:
They didn’t choose Him; God in His foreknowledge of them did the choosing/electing. And why were they chosen? ….because of God’s foreknowledge of each one of them (on an individual basis).
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The Canons of Dort speak of Election not being based on Foreseen Faith
Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).
 
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BillyBob said:
The Canons of Dort speak of Election not being based on Foreseen Faith
Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).
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Hi, BB …
I actually was using the word “foreknowledge” in the sense that God chose His election on the basis of His foreknowledge of them (individually). For example, in Jeremiah 1, God tells Jeremiah:
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

- Jeremiah 1:4-5
 
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FollowerofShiloh said:
We believe that Paul is the author of Hebrews.
Paul either wrote/said: 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation? which began to be spoken through the Lord, and was confirmed for us by those that heard.

Let's look at this verse closer.

1. which began to be spoken through the Lord
2. and was confirmed for us by those that heard

Jesus spoke to His Disciples, they Heard, and then we see they CONFIRMED what Jesus said.

So what did Jesus say to them?

1. 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

3. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive

So Jesus said to His Disciples 1. Repent, 2. be Baptized, 3. receive the Holy Spirit

How did the Disciples confirm what Jesus said?

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


So Paul, in Hebrews, says LOOK to what Jesus said and what the Disciples confirmed about Salvation.

Peter confirmed Jesus Words:
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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So, coming right out the chute you're dead wrong! Doesn't take you long to prove your ignorance of the scriptures. If Paul wrote Hebrews as YOU claim, then we'd have another contradiction in the bible. At least you excel at something, I suppose... :rolleyes:
 
BillyBob said:
The Canons of Dort speak of Election not being based on Foreseen Faith
Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).
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AMEN to that,brother!
 
Rufus said:
So, coming right out the chute you're dead wrong! Doesn't take you long to prove your ignorance of the scriptures. If Paul wrote Hebrews as YOU claim, then we'd have another contradiction in the bible. At least you excel at something, I suppose... :rolleyes:
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There's no name to Hebrews but Scholars/Theologians believe he did.

You are special, aren't ya?
 
selahsays said:
We don’t agree here.

Yes, I read it; however, I still don’t see in these verses that non-elect folks don’t exist. Jesus includes them in His prayer to His Father in John 17.
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First, Jesus specifically prayed for only the elect. He prayed for his disciples in earshot and he prayed for all those who would believe the gospel through their preaching. He explicitly omitted the non-elect (the world). So there's that.

Secondly, if the non-elect are in view in Rom 8:30, then this means anyone and everyone who hears the external call of the gospel is saved, since the passage clearly goes on to say that God ALSO justified and glorified those people he called. And this passage says nothing at all about how anyone must respond to the call! This passage is silent on faith because faith or repentance are not Paul's focus. Rather, it is God's WORK that is emphasized in this passage. This is why scripture teaches two different kinds of call.
 
Rufus said:
First, Jesus specifically prayed for only the elect. He prayed for his disciples in earshot and he prayed for all those who would believe the gospel through their preaching. He explicitly omitted the non-elect (the world). So there's that.

Secondly, if the non-elect are in view in Rom 8:30, then this means anyone and everyone who hears the external call of the gospel is saved, since the passage clearly goes on to say that God ALSO justified and glorified those people he called. And this passage says nothing at all about how anyone must respond to the call! This passage is silent on faith because faith or repentance are not Paul's focus. Rather, it is God's WORK that is emphasized in this passage. This is why scripture teaches two different kinds of call.
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Or it means like Adam, God told him do not eat and he did it anyway.
Rejection is Free Will.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
There's no name to Hebrews but Scholars/Theologians believe he did.

You are special, aren't ya?
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All scholars and theologians? Or just your special kind? Here's a link that presents several compelling arguments against Pauline authorship. But the clincher for me is this blurb:

https://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html

Finally, Paul was an apostle who claimed to receive his revelations directly from the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:12). The writer of Hebrews specifically says that he was taught by an apostle (Hebrews 2:3).

And herein is that contradiction (twice over to boot!) to which I alluded to earlier. Maybe Paul had a memory lapse? Or the Holy Spirit did who inspired the writer of this epistle? Isn't an apostle a flesh and blood man?

Re your last question: Shirley, my better half thinks so. :p
 
Rufus said:
All scholars and theologians? Or just your special kind? Here's a link that presents several compelling arguments against Pauline authorship. But the clincher for me is this blurb:

https://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html

Finally, Paul was an apostle who claimed to receive his revelations directly from the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:12). The writer of Hebrews specifically says that he was taught by an apostle (Hebrews 2:3).

And herein is that contradiction (twice over to boot!) to which I alluded to earlier. Maybe Paul had a memory lapse? Or the Holy Spirit did who inspired the writer of this epistle? Isn't an apostle a flesh and blood man?

Re your last question: Shirley, my better half thinks so. :p
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Paul heard by the Holy Spirit, the Disciples audibly heard from Jesus in physical person to person appearance for 3+ years.

They are not even close to the same thing.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Mathematics is not. Doctrine is useless. Look at You!
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Okay...then watch what I'm about to do:

1 Tim 1:10-11
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers — and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
NIV

1 Tim 4:16
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
NIV

2 Tim 4:3
3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine . Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
NIV

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
NIV

Titus 2:1
2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine
NIV

Do you have anymore faux pearls of useless, worldly wisdom for us?
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Paul heard by the Holy Spirit, the Disciples audibly heard from Jesus in physical person to person appearance for 3+ years.

They are not even close to the same thing.
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Paul learned directly from Jesus. Not from any man, as the writer claimed in Heb 2:3. Learn to read.
 
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