Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Charlie_2024]

Hear! Hear! Spoken like a true Agnostic! We're all under the dark, heavy yoke of ignorance, are we? We just can't know, can we? Or is it the other brand of agnosticism that says truth is unknown? It all boils down to personal preferences, opinions or conjecture? So much for divine revelation which God gave us to impart spiritual knowledge to mankind. And so much for the ministry of the Holy Spirit (himself the Spirit of Truth) who will lead all God's chosen ones into the truth. It looks like God has deserted his Church, for we've all become helpless mishaps, hopelessly stuck on stupid because we can't extricate ourselves from the muck and mire of our personal whims and fancies and delusions, can we? We must be the most miserable people on this dark, forlorn planet!

But having said that...YOUR "jury" may still be out; but I know what the truth is, thank you! And that, too, only by the effectual grace of God!

You summed it up very well, I couldn't describe the problem any better than you did. You even gave us a perfect example of why the Church is divided over this very important doctrine. You actually quoted the magic phrase, "but I know what the truth is"

Millions of Christians claim to know the truth, but they don't don't agree with each other and they all have opposing views of what the correct interpretation is.

This problem with the many truths scenario, is that it has caused the Church to disintegrate into countless denominations. Each claims to poses the correct interpretation and truth, while holding opposing interpretations and views to all the others.

It's no wonder that, the world has turned it's back on the Church and treats Christians like we're confused and deluded people.

I personally don't believe that the Church could ever unite, whilst everyone holds on firmly to their own denominational doctrines.

 

[Rufus]

Makes sense to me.

Now…. the thing I disagree with is that I believe that the “already condemned” are those who did not choose Christ before the foundation of the world.

Well if you believe that God chose who to save in eternity, and he didn't choose everyone, then what other logical conclusion can we reach about those he didn't choose? Did he not, in effect, choose to pass them by?

Every proposition logically presupposes its antithesis. If I say that I went in to a car showroom and chose a particular model of car in a particular color, does that not imply (presuppose) that I did not choose the rest of the cars in their various colors in that showroom?

 

[Rufus]

You summed it up very well, I couldn't describe the problem any better than you did. You even gave us a perfect example of why the Church is divided over this very important doctrine. You actually quoted the magic phrase, "but I know what the truth is"

Millions of Christians claim to know the truth, but they don't don't agree with each other and they all have opposing views of what the correct interpretation is.

This problem with the many truths scenario, is that it has caused the Church to disintegrate into countless denominations. Each claims to poses the correct interpretation and truth, while holding opposing interpretations and views to all the others.

It's no wonder that, the world has turned it's back on the Church and treats Christians like we're confused and deluded people.

I personally don't believe that the Church could ever unite, whilst everyone holds on firmly to their own denominational doctrines.

With agnostics like yourself in it, who would want to rub elbows with you? But here's the thing Mr. Agnostic: Scripture teaches that we can know the truth! To synthesize agnosticism with Christianity is a wee bit self-defeating and contradicts scripture.

Also, when I say "I know the truth"...of course, I'm talking strictly in the context of the Five Doctrines of Grace, which is a systematic expression of the one and only Gospel. All other forms of soteriology are heretical, as far as I'm concerned. Again, I speak from the perspective of objective divine revelation and my own personal, subjective salvation experience. But with regard to other theological issues , my theology has slowly evolved over the years, which means I have changed my mind on some things.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus paid the price for all people. It is up to each individual to either accept Jesus' sacrifice for her/his sin and be saved (have eternal life) or not. God gave/gives people free will. They can either accept Jesus as their Savior or not.

I did not read your post #2142. You are wrong here, so why should you be correct earlier?

Just because you claim that doesn't make it so. There is no text in scripture that says that Jesus died for each and every person on the planet. Meanwhile, there are plenty of passages that explicitly tell us for whom he did die!

Also, no one has ever given me a coherent, rational reason for why God would send his Son to die for all, when God never intended to save all. What is the point? The names of all God's elect have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world -- before anyone was born.

And please define what you mean by "free will"? For I, too, believe in free will -- but evidently not in your brand.

In 2142 I went into a little bit depth. But whatever floats your boat...

 

[Rufus]

I’ll give a few examples, but there are so many more (notice the differences):

NIV:
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

- Daniel 3:25 (NIV)

KJV:
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

- Daniel 3:25 (KJV)

Notice this major difference in Acts 8:37!

NIV:
(Uh-oh! There’s nothing there! They left the whole verse out! Why?)

KJV:
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

- Acts 8:37 (KJV)

And in 2 Timothy 2:15, notice the big difference.

NIV:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

KJV:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

I take it that you're KJV-only gal? This is the inspired translation? Well, good for you. I have no time to go down that rabbit hole. I know there is no one perfect translation out there, which is why I often appeal to multiple ones.

 

[Rufus]

Again the question: how many of the people of Noah's day are said to have found grace in the eyes of the Lord as was spoken of Noah?

All unregenerate individuals reject God and live contrary to Him. It is the default position of fallen man...Ephesians 2:1-3. The natural hearing of the gospel is insufficient to render man alive. Spiritual hearing is necessary for grace to produce faith...Hebrews 4:2. Fallen man is helpless in his natural estate to help himself.

And those in the flesh (sinful nature) CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8). And it's impossible to please God without faith (Heb 11:6) So, can any NR explain to me how any natural. unregenerate person can change his sinful nature in order to come to saving faith? Are we supposed to believe that the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin or the leopard can change its spots? Or that good fruit can come from a bad tree? Explain to me how a person can change his essence? This not only defies scripture, but also what many philosophers would consider to the first Law of Logic -- the Law of Identity.

Or if you don't want to go the above route, explain please how the spiritual dead can have more ability than the physical dead. How can the spiritual dead hear (understand) spiritual truth? Spiritual truth is foolishness to the walking dead!

 

[Rufus]

^
Then God gave those people in verse 5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time...120 years to repent

Yup. God was gracious to the antediluvians and how did that work out for them? Methinks it worked out just the way the prophet said it would in Isa 26:9-10.

 

[Charlie_2024]

With agnostics like yourself in it, who would want to rub elbows with you? But here's the thing Mr. Agnostic: Scripture teaches that we can know the truth! To synthesize agnosticism with Christianity is a wee bit self-defeating and contradicts scripture.

Also, when I say "I know the truth"...of course, I'm talking strictly in the context of the Five Doctrines of Grace, which is a systematic expression of the one and only Gospel. All other forms of soteriology are heretical, as far as I'm concerned. Again, I speak from the perspective of objective divine revelation and my own personal, subjective salvation experience. But with regard to other theological issues , my theology has slowly evolved over the years, which means I have changed my mind on some things.

Thank you for admitting that you're on a journey of evolution, whereby you abandon yesterdays theology to embrace the progressive new age theology of always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Again, you have admitted that you believe in your own wisdom and understanding to guide you to the truth, but the bible says "cursed is the man who leans on his own understanding".

 

[selahsays]

I take it that you're KJV-only gal? This is the inspired translation? Well, good for you. I have no time to go down that rabbit hole. I know there is no one perfect translation out there, which is why I often appeal to multiple ones.

Actually, I’m not a KJV-only gal. I use others as well to gain further understanding. We just need to be cautious and use the discernment of the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the Word.

 

[Rufus]

Using a Greek translation (Septuagint) of the original Hebrew, that became Latin and then English and in here claiming you got the facts after 3 translations into totally different languages. This must be the COMEDY HOUR here at CC.

What in the world are you talking about? I'm going by the Hebrew scriptures. Latin? Greek? You're really desperate.

 

[Rufus]

Thank you for admitting that you're on a journey of evolution, whereby you abandon yesterdays theology to embrace the progressive new age theology of always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Again, you have admitted that you believe in your own wisdom and understanding to guide you to the truth, but the bible says "cursed is the man who leans on his own understanding".

I didn't say that either. But what I did imply is that, unlike you, I'm not closed-minded wherein the danger is that truth could be filtered out. Nor am I so open-minded that I just let any garbage run into my mind. Rather, I'm critical-minded and analyze what I study, being particularly careful that whatever conclusion I reach that it doesn't contradict the Word of God, such as your agnosticism does. And I never said I believe in my own wisdom. I rely heavily on the Holy Spirit to guide me into truth. After all, it's what real true-blue believer in the Five Doctrines of Grace would do. Wouldn't he?

So...can you defend your agnosticism from the scriptures? I would take a front row seat seat to see that performance.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yup. God was gracious to the antediluvians and how did that work out for them? Methinks it worked out just the way the prophet said it would in Isa 26:9-10.

Those who rejected God's Warning that it would rain and destroy all life perfectly matches the Hebrew

חַ֚ן רָשָׁע֙ בַּל־לָמַ֣ד צֶ֔דֶק בְּאֶ֥רֶץ נְכֹח֖וֹת יְעַוֵּ֑ל וּבַל־יִרְאֶ֖ה גֵּא֥וּת יְהֹוָֽה:
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What in the world are you talking about? I'm going by the Hebrew scriptures. Latin? Greek? You're really desperate.

If you were going by the Tanakh it would read like what I am providing.

 

[Cameron143]

And those in the flesh (sinful nature) CANNOT please God (Rom 8:8). And it's impossible to please God without faith (Heb 11:6) So, can any NR explain to me how any natural. unregenerate person can change his sinful nature in order to come to saving faith? Are we supposed to believe that the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin or the leopard can change its spots? Or that good fruit can come from a bad tree? Explain to me how a person can change his essence? This not only defies scripture, but also what many philosophers would consider to the first Law of Logic -- the Law of Identity.

Or if you don't want to go the above route, explain please how the spiritual dead can have more ability than the physical dead. How can the spiritual dead hear (understand) spiritual truth? Spiritual truth is foolishness to the walking dead!

I don't disagree with any of this. What did I write to suggest that I did?

 

[Rufus]

Actually, I’m not a KJV-only gal. I use others as well to gain further understanding. We just need to be cautious and use the discernment of the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the Word.

I totally agree with that. As I said earlier, there are pros and cons to both the Formal and Dynamic Equivalency translations. Sometimes one will shed more light on the truth than the other, and then vice versa. The one Formal translation that I'm partial to is the NASB because I like how it italicizes words that the translators added for clarification. The NIV doesn't do that...but then again...with DE translations, the goal of the translators is different. They mainly want to capture the sense of what is being said, rather than word-for-word. My least favorite translation is the KJV because of the outdated English. But a big plus in the KJV's favor is that because of the outdated English, it is easier to memorize -- at least I've been told that by a few people, and it does seem to make sense.

 

[Rufus]

If you were going by the Tanakh it would read like what I am providing.

Again, with all the versions I posted, they were all in basic agreement....and...the various translations neither contradict scripture, as I have proven, nor does it contradict Natural Revelation. Good enough for me.

 

[Rufus]

I don't disagree with any of this. What did I write to suggest that I did?

Not a thing. Just adding to your thoughts with which I am in total agreement.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Again, with all the versions I posted, they were all in basic agreement....and...the various translations neither contradict scripture, as I have proven, nor does it contradict Natural Revelation. Good enough for me.

The Hebrew words for Favor טוֹבָה in this spelling, like in Isiah means to be chosen
The Hebrew word used in your version for Grace is חן that means charity

 

[PaulThomson]

The jury is still out on the question of election. The debate has been raging for the past 500 years, since Arminius and Calvin started the conflict. It all comes down to which interpretation appeals to the individual, so nobody can claim they poses the correct interpretation.

The Church will never reach a consensus on this issue. So the only thing the Church can do is agree to disagree for the sake of peace. The Arminians will never capitulate and neither will the Calvinists, so the debate will go on indefinitely.

The church is not just Calvinists and Arminians. False dichotomy.

 

[PaulThomson]

NON-REFORMED. Better I state it that way because I don't like to assume that all the opposition here subscribes to Arminianism, since there are other heresies, as well, that differ from it but are still opposed to the Doctrines of Grace, e.g. Pelagianism.

The reformation began in 157. That's 507 years ago. People who follow Luther's or Calvin''s or other early reformers have fossilised doctrines and are as stuck in their traditions and in need of reform as the Catholics were in 1517., and the Jews were in 30AD Arguably, we should not be reformed, but reforming. Many Calvinists and Lutherans may be Reformed (Red) but non-Reforming. (No Ring). What we have been told scripture is teaching should be constantly open to challenge and perhaps adjustment as biblical dialogue with others reveals new insights into what biblical texts actually say.