Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[selahsays]

You nailed it perfectly. Plus the Lord doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezk 18:32; 33:11) because judgment, condemnation and punishment are his strange work (Isa 28:21;' Gen 6:6)) . And even more than this -- Noah preached to them for 120 years (Gen 6:3), which was clearly an expression of God's grace. Yet, because of the total depravity of the antediluvians' hearts (Gen Gen 6:5), none but Noah and his immediate family was saved. The rest of the world refused to repent and be saved because it was not in them to do so! They could not repent and believe Noah's preaching of the "gospel" (such as it was at that time); for they could not change what they were, i.e. their essence (Jer 13:23), which testifies to the sad truth of this passage:

Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV

External expressions of God's grace never has saved anyone! The power of Grace works only when God internally applies it to a depraved heart, for He is greater than the human heart (1Jn 3:20), which is the fountainhead of all evil, according to Jesus (Mat 15:18-20)! This is precisely why God cannot love anything or anyone that is evil. He can love only that which reflects his glory and his thrice holy character. Therefore, God hates sin and the sinner, as so many passages teach! But thanks be to our Glorious Lord and Savior that He so loved his elect in Christ before time began! Now that is something worthy over which to loudly sing our praises
to our Great and Awesome and Merciful and Compassionate God! But if any of us NOW can't find it in our hearts to rejoice and praise God over these great truths I just shared, how will we be able to find those things in our hearts in the next age? Isn't this age preparing us for the age to come?

Greetings…

Are the wicked and depraved these whose father is the devil?
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

- John 8:44-45 (KJV)

 

[Rufus]

How do you get logically from premise 1 to conclusion 2?
If I provide team sports kits for all the students in a school, intending that all participate in the school sports day, and many choose not to don the clothes and participate, but enough participate to fill all the team positions required for the games to function, why is my generous provision an epic failure?

Because there is a difference between you and the Sovereign King of the Universe. What God intends will always come to past because his Word will never returns to him void (Isa 55:11), and all things are possible with him (Mat 19:26). God's intentions or plans can never be frustrated.

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

And,

Job 42:2
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
NIV

Your analogy fails because obviously something(s) frustrated your intentions and plans. But with God that is impossible!

Consider what Mr. Shiloh conceded yesterday, for example,when he said that Jn 3:17 doesn't teach universal salvation because the text doesn't say that the Father sent the Son into the world to save ALL the world. (Okay...fair enough. I agree.) But since that is the case, then he also unwittingly admitted that it was never the Father's intention to save the entire world! Therefore, how in the world is it logical and coherent to jump from that position to the one that NRs posit regarding the extent of the atonement which says: Nonetheless the Father [still] intended for the Son to die for the sins of all men even though He never intended in eternity for the Son to save all men. Truly, such thinking can only be characterized as cognitive dissonance.

I gotta run to prepare for church. But later I will expand on this particular subject to drive the point home even harder.

 

[Cameron143]

Or it could be looked at from how it was factually written according to the Bible. God only killed them because they "rejected" His offer of salvation.

Everything God does He does to glorify His name. Looking at things from man's perspective doesn't glorify God. It is an attempt to glorify man, wittingly or unwittingly. This is what produced sin in the first place...man wanting to be as God.
This is why I believe it is important to focus on God, and not men. So when I read a biblical story, I focus on what God does, and does not do.
Man's response because of sin will always be contrary to God unless God intervenes and changes a man's heart. It's unfortunate that the truth engendered in Isaiah 26:10 escapes you. For this is what it teaches, which makes sense. If God is to be glorified in salvation, man will be unable to boast in his part in it. His only boast will be in Christ.

 

[MerSee]

The jury is still out on the question of election. The debate has been raging for the past 500 years, since Arminius and Calvin started the conflict. It all comes down to which interpretation appeals to the individual, so nobody can claim they poses the correct interpretation.

The Church will never reach a consensus on this issue. So the only thing the Church can do is agree to disagree for the sake of peace. The Arminians will never capitulate and neither will the Calvinists, so the debate will go on indefinitely.

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

11 The women in like manner chaste, not slanderers, but sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses. 13 For they that have ministered well, shall purchase to themselves a good degree, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Rufus]

Who are the "No Response" or "Northern Region" (NR) people you are referring to here?

NON-REFORMED. Better I state it that way because I don't like to assume that all the opposition here subscribes to Arminianism, since there are other heresies, as well, that differ from it but are still opposed to the Doctrines of Grace, e.g. Pelagianism.

 

[Rufus]

The jury is still out on the question of election. The debate has been raging for the past 500 years, since Arminius and Calvin started the conflict. It all comes down to which interpretation appeals to the individual, so nobody can claim they poses the correct interpretation.

The Church will never reach a consensus on this issue. So the only thing the Church can do is agree to disagree for the sake of peace. The Arminians will never capitulate and neither will the Calvinists, so the debate will go on indefinitely.

Hear! Hear! Spoken like a true Agnostic! We're all under the dark, heavy yoke of ignorance, are we? We just can't know, can we? Or is it the other brand of agnosticism that says truth is unknown? It all boils down to personal preferences, opinions or conjecture? So much for divine revelation which God gave us to impart spiritual knowledge to mankind. And so much for the ministry of the Holy Spirit (himself the Spirit of Truth) who will lead all God's chosen ones into the truth. It looks like God has deserted his Church, for we've all become helpless mishaps, hopelessly stuck on stupid because we can't extricate ourselves from the muck and mire of our personal whims and fancies and delusions, can we? We must be the most miserable people on this dark, forlorn planet!

But having said that...YOUR "jury" may still be out; but I know what the truth is, thank you! And that, too, only by the effectual grace of God!

 

[Rufus]

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

All is good, brother. I've been there and done that myself to my own shame.

 

[PaulThomson]

NON-REFORMED. Better I state it that way because I don't like to assume that all the opposition here subscribes to Arminianism, since there are other heresies, as well, that differ from it but are still opposed to the Doctrines of Grace, e.g. Pelagianism.

The reformation began in 1517. That's 507 years ago. People who follow Luther's or Calvin''s or other early reformers fossilised docr=trines are as stuck in their traditionsand in need of reform as the Catholics were in 1517. Arguably, we should not be reformed, but reforming. Many Calvinists and Lutherans may be Reformed (R-ed but non-Reforming. .N-R-ing. What we have been told scripture is teaching should be in a constant process of being challenged and perhaps adjusted through biblical dialogue by our discoveries of what texts actaully say.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Everything God does He does to glorify His name. Looking at things from man's perspective doesn't glorify God. It is an attempt to glorify man, wittingly or unwittingly. This is what produced sin in the first place...man wanting to be as God.
This is why I believe it is important to focus on God, and not men. So when I read a biblical story, I focus on what God does, and does not do.
Man's response because of sin will always be contrary to God unless God intervenes and changes a man's heart. It's unfortunate that the truth engendered in Isaiah 26:10 escapes you. For this is what it teaches, which makes sense. If God is to be glorified in salvation, man will be unable to boast in his part in it. His only boast will be in Christ.

120 years of Warning most definitely shows the Glory of God and killing them all because of their continued rejection reveals the Justification of God.

 

[jamessb]

You obviously have no clue what my position is. In what you quote, you quoted me out of context. I was stating what the NR position SHOULD be if they applied the term "world" consistently. (The operative term here is "consistently".) Their naive and simplistic belief about this term is that it's always used in the distributive sense, such as they apply it to Jn 3:16, as they believe that God loves every single person in the world; yet when they get to v. 17, all of a sudden it's not used in that universal sense. They quickly sing another tune. Shiloh himself conceded today that v.17 doesn't say that Christ came to save "all" the world. At the same time, he was obviously to the fact that neither does v.16 say God so loved all the world!

Try to keep up #52, lest you embarrass yourself further. Everyone here but you, apparently, understands that I hold to the Five Doctrines of Grace. I have never hidden that fact!

Have a good evening, sir.

P.S. But I am grateful for your Mat 1:21 quote since it supports my argument.

It is unfortunate that you are unable to read the Bible correctly!

Here is John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

a) God loved (and loves) the entire world
b) Whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life

a) has to do with God loving everyone b) has to do with people's belief a) doesn't affect b)

It is God's clear intention that He, out of love, wants everyone to believe in His Son and not to be condemned.

=> Christ died for everyone <= There is not a single person to whom this doesn't apply. It is up to each person to accept that Jesus died on her/his behalf.

 

[Rufus]

You should research the Hebrew before declaring the English translation as truth.
It's not,
Though grace is shown to the wicked,

You should research the Hebrew before declaring the English translation as truth.
It's not,
Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;

It's,
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness?

Isaiah is showing us the wicked are "rejecting" to learn righteousness so they won't ever be favored.

Hence why I mentioned those Noah preached to. They rejected and God killed them because of it.

they do not learn righteousness;

It's,
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness?

Isaiah is showing us the wicked are "rejecting" to learn righteousness so they won't ever be favored.

Hence why I mentioned those Noah preached to. They rejected and God killed them because of it.

You should take your own advice! All my English translations say otherwise! Also, v. 10 isn't saying what you claim because v. 10 is contrasted with v.9. Ergo, your fanciful interpretation is taken out of context! You should ditch the translation from which you pulled that verse! Moreover, your interpretation denies the biblical fact that God gave the antediluvians a 120-year GRACE period to repent at Noah's preaching, proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that God's forebearance and kindness bore no fruit, which is precisely what Isa 26:9-10 is teaching!

Here's how Isa 26:9-10 reads in the various English translations that I have in my arsenal:

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

10 If favour be shewn to the wicked, he doth not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness he dealeth unjustly, and beholdeth not the majesty of Jehovah.
Darby

Isa 26:9-10
9[With] my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, [with] my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments [are] on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness.

10 The wicked findeth favour, He hath not learned righteousness, In a land of straightforwardness he dealeth perversely, And seeth not the excellency of Jehovah.
YLT

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for You [O Lord] in the night, yes, my spirit within me seeks You earnestly; for [only] when Your judgments are in the earth will the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness (uprightness and right standing with God).

10 Though favor is shown to the wicked, yet they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely and refuse to see the majesty of the Lord.
AMP

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

10 Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
NKJV

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
KJV

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV

Isa 26:8-10
9 All night long I search for you; earnestly I seek for God; for only when you come in judgment on the earth to punish it will people turn away from wickedness and do what is right.

10 Your kindness to the wicked doesn't make them good; they keep on doing wrong and take no notice of your majesty.
TLB

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night I long for you with all my heart;
when you judge the earth and its people,
they will all learn what justice is.
10 Even though you are kind to wicked men,
they never learn to do what is right.
Even here in a land of righteous people
they still do wrong;
they refuse to recognize your greatness.
TEV

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah.
ASV

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.
NASU

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night my soul longs for Thee,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently;
For when the earth experiences Thy judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.
NASB

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.
For when your judgments are in the earth,
the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked,
he does not learn righteousness;
in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly
and does not see the majesty of the Lord.
ESV

Isa 26:9-10
9 All night long I search for you;
earnestly I seek for God.
For only when you come to judge the earth
will people turn from wickedness and do what is right.
10 Your kindness to the wicked does not make them do good.
They keep doing wrong and take no notice of the LORD's majesty.
NLT

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night,
my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.
For when your judgments are in the earth,
the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
in the land of uprightness they deal perversely
and do not see the majesty of the LORD.
NRSV

As for me and my household, we'll go with the unanimous consensus of these different teams of translators. But I'm not done yet! I know you and others here are going to remain skeptical because you have your theological agenda to push. So, what I'm going to do in my next post is show you how this proper understanding of this divinely inspired passage, in its context, harmonizes beautifully with Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You should take your own advice! All my English translations say otherwise! Also, v. 10 isn't saying what you claim because v. 10 is contrasted with v.9. Ergo, your fanciful interpretation is taken out of context! You should ditch the translation from which you pulled that verse! Moreover, your interpretation denies the biblical fact that God gave the antediluvians a 120-year GRACE period to repent at Noah's preaching, proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that God's forebearance and kindness bore no fruit, which is precisely what Isa 26:9-10 is teaching!

Here's how Isa 26:9-10 reads in the various English translations that I have in my arsenal:

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

10 If favour be shewn to the wicked, he doth not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness he dealeth unjustly, and beholdeth not the majesty of Jehovah.
Darby

Isa 26:9-10
9[With] my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, [with] my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments [are] on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness.

10 The wicked findeth favour, He hath not learned righteousness, In a land of straightforwardness he dealeth perversely, And seeth not the excellency of Jehovah.
YLT

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for You [O Lord] in the night, yes, my spirit within me seeks You earnestly; for [only] when Your judgments are in the earth will the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness (uprightness and right standing with God).

10 Though favor is shown to the wicked, yet they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely and refuse to see the majesty of the Lord.
AMP

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

10 Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
NKJV

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
KJV

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV

Isa 26:8-10
9 All night long I search for you; earnestly I seek for God; for only when you come in judgment on the earth to punish it will people turn away from wickedness and do what is right.

10 Your kindness to the wicked doesn't make them good; they keep on doing wrong and take no notice of your majesty.
TLB

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night I long for you with all my heart;
when you judge the earth and its people,
they will all learn what justice is.
10 Even though you are kind to wicked men,
they never learn to do what is right.
Even here in a land of righteous people
they still do wrong;
they refuse to recognize your greatness.
TEV

Isa 26:9-10
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah.
ASV

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night my soul longs for You,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.
NASU

Isa 26:9-10
9 At night my soul longs for Thee,
Indeed, my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently;
For when the earth experiences Thy judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness;
He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness,
And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.
NASB

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.
For when your judgments are in the earth,
the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked,
he does not learn righteousness;
in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly
and does not see the majesty of the Lord.
ESV

Isa 26:9-10
9 All night long I search for you;
earnestly I seek for God.
For only when you come to judge the earth
will people turn from wickedness and do what is right.
10 Your kindness to the wicked does not make them do good.
They keep doing wrong and take no notice of the LORD's majesty.
NLT

Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night,
my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.
For when your judgments are in the earth,
the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
in the land of uprightness they deal perversely
and do not see the majesty of the LORD.
NRSV

As for me and my household, we'll go with the unanimous consensus of these different teams of translators. But I'm not done yet! I know you and others here are going to remain skeptical because you have your theological agenda to push. So, what I'm going to do in my next post is show you how this proper understanding of this divinely inspired passage, in its context, harmonizes beautifully with Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it).

Enjoy your English translations but they are not the originals. I presented the original. If your English does not align to the original then how useful is it?

 

[Rufus]

It is unfortunate that you are unable to read the Bible correctly!

Here is John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

a) God loved (and loves) the entire world
b) Whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life

a) has to do with God loving everyone b) has to do with people's belief a) doesn't affect b)

It is God's clear intention that He, out of love, wants everyone to believe in His Son and not to be condemned.

=> Christ died for everyone <= There is not a single person to whom this doesn't apply. It is up to each person to accept that Jesus died on her/his behalf.

Nope, the larger context (vv.18-21) tells us that Christ spoke of two different groups of people, as I explained previously. The "world" for which Christ died was the world of the elect, since all the unbelievers already stood condemned from eternity, for they were elected unto reprobation. The "world" in vv.16-17 is qualifed by this larger context. Jesus did not come to die for those already condemned by divine decree in eternity. He came to die for the two flocks of sheep that are scattered throughout the world that his Father gave to him and predestined, therefore, in eternity to save. (And it was for these two flocks that Jesus explicitly prayed for in John 17!) Since God never predestined that all men be saved, then it stands to reason that he predestined the non-elect to a different destiny, i.e. CONDEMNATION! Hint: The non-elect are the lump of clay used for common (or ignoble) purposes in Romans 9, while the elect are the lump God destined for noble ends. And guess who made those two lumps out of one!?

Finally, who the Father emphatically does not want to condemn are all those he predestined in eternity to be saved.

 

[Rufus]

Enjoy your English translations but they are not the originals. I presented the original. If your English does not align to the original then how useful is it?

No, you presented an English translation. Furterhmore, you're implying that all those diffrent teams of language experts are ignorant of the Hebrew language. Why didn't you answer my question about the translation you quoted? And why do you still ignore the larger context? There are two different situations spoken of in that passage, and the wicked responded differently to each.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No, you presented an English translation. Furterhmore, you're implying that all those diffrent teams of language experts are ignorant of the Hebrew language. Why didn't you answer my question about the translation you quoted? And why do you still ignore the larger context? There are two different situations spoken of in that passage, and the wicked responded differently to each.

I presented the Hebrew. You just are not familiar with the truth.

יֻחַ֚ן רָשָׁע֙ בַּל־לָמַ֣ד צֶ֔דֶק בְּאֶ֥רֶץ נְכֹח֖וֹת יְעַוֵּ֑ל וּבַל־יִרְאֶ֖ה גֵּא֥וּת יְהֹוָֽה:
10 Shall the wicked be favored-who did not learn righteousness? In the land of uprightness he deals unjustly, and he does not see the pride of the Lord.

And I did answer.

 

[jamessb]

Nope, the larger context (vv.18-21) tells us that Christ spoke of two different groups of people, as I explained previously. The "world" for which Christ died was the world of the elect, since all the unbelievers already stood condemned from eternity, for they were elected unto reprobation. The "world" in vv.16-17 is qualifed by this larger context. Jesus did not come to die for those already condemned by divine decree in eternity. He came to die for the two flocks of sheep that are scattered throughout the world that his Father gave to him and predestined, therefore, in eternity to save. (And it was for these two flocks that Jesus explicitly prayed for in John 17!) Since God never predestined that all men be saved, then it stands to reason that he predestined the non-elect to a different destiny, i.e. CONDEMNATION! Hint: The non-elect are the lump of clay used for common (or ignoble) purposes in Romans 9, while the elect are the lump God destined for noble ends. And guess who made those two lumps out of one!?

Finally, who the Father emphatically does not want to condemn are all those he predestined in eternity to be saved.

You should learn to read and interpret with understanding. When you have done so we can continue this conversation.

 

[jamessb]

Anyone who believes that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the creator of the world, one-third of the Godhead, and God's son was only partially effective has no understanding of the truth or the power of God.

 

[Cameron143]

120 years of Warning most definitely shows the Glory of God and killing them all because of their continued rejection reveals the Justification of God.

The glory of God is always revealed in the actions of God. He is equally glorified in the exercise of His grace as He is in the exercise of His justice. Perhaps the 120 years was given to emphasize that regardless of how much time gives man to repent, man will not repent unless God intervenes.

 

[selahsays]

Nope, the larger context (vv.18-21) tells us that Christ spoke of two different groups of people, as I explained previously. The "world" for which Christ died was the world of the elect, since all the unbelievers already stood condemned from eternity, for they were elected unto reprobation. The "world" in vv.16-17 is qualifed by this larger context. Jesus did not come to die for those already condemned by divine decree in eternity. He came to die for the two flocks of sheep that are scattered throughout the world that his Father gave to him and predestined, therefore, in eternity to save. (And it was for these two flocks that Jesus explicitly prayed for in John 17!) Since God never predestined that all men be saved, then it stands to reason that he predestined the non-elect to a different destiny, i.e. CONDEMNATION! Hint: The non-elect are the lump of clay used for common (or ignoble) purposes in Romans 9, while the elect are the lump God destined for noble ends. And guess who made those two lumps out of one!?

Finally, who the Father emphatically does not want to condemn are all those he predestined in eternity to be saved.

What 2 flocks are you talking about? If the Elect were already predestined for salvation, why would Jesus have to die for them?

 

[Rufus]

More on Isa 26:9-10 and Natural Revelation

I also happen to have in my grab-bag of bible translations what appears to be the original NIV version and interestingly enough, the translators changed two words in v. 10 from the later version.



Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 But when grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV

The later version starts v.10 with "Though grace". Whereas this earlier version quoted above starts with "But when" which really captures the sense of the passage since there is a contrast being made with the previous verse. However, the later version captures the sense very well also, since "though" means "in spite of".

Now another sure-fire way we can be sure that our interpretation is on the mark is by appealing to Natural Revelation, i.e. reality as we all know it. (If anyone here doubts that there is such a thing, then I would encourage you to read Romans 1.) Natural Revelation always harmonizes with Special Revelation.

If anyone is aware of our current sociopolitical climate in this nation, then you'd be familiar with how liberal-minded DAs throughout the country, especially in the "blue" states, are strongly inclined to be lenient on certain criminals -- criminals "of color". groups with leftist leanings, etc. If you searched the internet, it would not take you long to find numerous examples of repeat crimes by criminals who were objects of this kind of leniency ("grace"). Far too often I have read about these types repeating their crimes and creating more victims.

Another excellent example is with our current day border crisis. This current presidential administration has no qualms, apparently, about little or no vetting policy of migrants entering this country illegally. In many cases, there are very bad people being allowed into our country in the name of "compassion for oppressed people". In other words, our policy is one of "grace" toward one and all, regardless of their backgrounds or characters. And this has resulted in numerous serious crimes being committed against the host country (American citizens) by these illegals.

So, what we see here in the real world is that treating the wicked leniently or softly or graciously has the opposite consequences for which the liberals had hoped. Instead of these criminally-minded people being grateful and humbled for the leniency (grace) they have been shown, they DOUBLE-DOWN on their wickedness! And this fact within Natural Revelation bears witness to the truth to what is taught in Special (divine) Revelation.

Finally, another relevant passage of scripture has come to mind that supports Isa 26:

Eccl 8:11
11 When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong.
NIV

And this passage no doubt gave birth to the old adage: "Justice delayed is justice denied"! And how true this adage is!Justice delayed is just another way of being soft on crime -- another way of coddling criminals.

I rest my case. I'm sure there are still people here who will not believe scripture or reality as we all know it. May it please the Lord to open their eyes sooner rather than later.