Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[jamessb]

But why would Jesus die for people who the Father never intended to save -- for those whom the Father would never give to his Son, and THEREFORE, would never come to the Son? Since Jesus came to "save his people", why would he die for those who were never ordained to be his people? Did you read my 2142?

Jesus paid the price for all people. It is up to each individual to either accept Jesus' sacrifice for her/his sin and be saved (have eternal life) or not. God gave/gives people free will. They can either accept Jesus as their Savior or not.

I did not read your post #2142. You are wrong here, so why should you be correct earlier?

 

[brightfame52]

It is unfortunate that you are unable to read the Bible correctly!

Here is John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

a) God loved (and loves) the entire world
b) Whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life

a) has to do with God loving everyone b) has to do with people's belief a) doesn't affect b)

It is God's clear intention that He, out of love, wants everyone to believe in His Son and not to be condemned.

=> Christ died for everyone <= There is not a single person to whom this doesn't apply. It is up to each person to accept that Jesus died on her/his behalf.

This is error !

 

[selahsays]

What do you have against the most best-selling Bible? It is a superb translation, developed and refined by very capable Biblical scholars with an excellent knowledge of both the Bible languages and modern English.

I’ll give a few examples, but there are so many more (notice the differences):

NIV:
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

- Daniel 3:25 (NIV)

KJV:
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

- Daniel 3:25 (KJV)

Notice this major difference in Acts 8:37!

NIV:
(Uh-oh! There’s nothing there! They left the whole verse out! Why?)

KJV:
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

- Acts 8:37 (KJV)

And in 2 Timothy 2:15, notice the big difference.

NIV:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

KJV:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

 

[MerSee]

…but if the Elect were already predestined for salvation, why did Jesus come to die for them? They were already Elect. ?

Jesus in his Divinity is eternal.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The glory of God is always revealed in the actions of God. He is equally glorified in the exercise of His grace as He is in the exercise of His justice. Perhaps the 120 years was given to emphasize that regardless of how much time gives man to repent, man will not repent unless God intervenes.

God did intervene. He warned them and built/created the answer before them and they still rejected because we have that ability, which is another Glory of God, "free will."

 

[selahsays]

Jesus in his Divinity is eternal.

I’m trying to understand. Thanks.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

More on Isa 26:9-10 and Natural Revelation

I also happen to have in my grab-bag of bible translations what appears to be the original NIV version and interestingly enough, the translators changed two words in v. 10 from the later version.



Isa 26:9-10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 But when grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
NIV

The later version starts v.10 with "Though grace". Whereas this earlier version quoted above starts with "But when" which really captures the sense of the passage since there is a contrast being made with the previous verse. However, the later version captures the sense very well also, since "though" means "in spite of".

Now another sure-fire way we can be sure that our interpretation is on the mark is by appealing to Natural Revelation, i.e. reality as we all know it. (If anyone here doubts that there is such a thing, then I would encourage you to read Romans 1.) Natural Revelation always harmonizes with Special Revelation.

If anyone is aware of our current sociopolitical climate in this nation, then you'd be familiar with how liberal-minded DAs throughout the country, especially in the "blue" states, are strongly inclined to be lenient on certain criminals -- criminals "of color". groups with leftist leanings, etc. If you searched the internet, it would not take you long to find numerous examples of repeat crimes by criminals who were objects of this kind of leniency ("grace"). Far too often I have read about these types repeating their crimes and creating more victims.

Another excellent example is with our current day border crisis. This current presidential administration has no qualms, apparently, about little or no vetting policy of migrants entering this country illegally. In many cases, there are very bad people being allowed into our country in the name of "compassion for oppressed people". In other words, our policy is one of "grace" toward one and all, regardless of their backgrounds or characters. And this has resulted in numerous serious crimes being committed against the host country (American citizens) by these illegals.

So, what we see here in the real world is that treating the wicked leniently or softly or graciously has the opposite consequences for which the liberals had hoped. Instead of these criminally-minded people being grateful and humbled for the leniency (grace) they have been shown, they DOUBLE-DOWN on their wickedness! And this fact within Natural Revelation bears witness to the truth to what is taught in Special (divine) Revelation.

Finally, another relevant passage of scripture has come to mind that supports Isa 26:

Eccl 8:11
11 When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong.
NIV

And this passage no doubt gave birth to the old adage: "Justice delayed is justice denied"! And how true this adage is!Justice delayed is just another way of being soft on crime -- another way of coddling criminals.

I rest my case. I'm sure there are still people here who will not believe scripture or reality as we all know it. May it please the Lord to open their eyes sooner rather than later.

Using a Greek translation (Septuagint) of the original Hebrew, that became Latin and then English and in here claiming you got the facts after 3 translations into totally different languages. This must be the COMEDY HOUR here at CC.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

For the goal of the Rufus language experts is to capture the sense of the text to escape the wooden, rigid literal.

Yeah, he hates the "rigid literal truth" because it denies his incorrect doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

God did intervene. He warned them and built/created the answer before them and they still rejected because we have that ability, which is another Glory of God, "free will."

Again the question: how many of the people of Noah's day are said to have found grace in the eyes of the Lord as was spoken of Noah?

All unregenerate individuals reject God and live contrary to Him. It is the default position of fallen man...Ephesians 2:1-3. The natural hearing of the gospel is insufficient to render man alive. Spiritual hearing is necessary for grace to produce faith...Hebrews 4:2. Fallen man is helpless in his natural estate to help himself.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Again the question: how many of the people of Noah's day are said to have found grace in the eyes of the Lord as was spoken of Noah?

All unregenerate individuals reject God and live contrary to Him. It is the default position of fallen man...Ephesians 2:1-3. The natural hearing of the gospel is insufficient to render man alive. Spiritual hearing is necessary for grace to produce faith...Hebrews 4:2. Fallen man is helpless in his natural estate to help himself.

Everyone had equal chance to find Grace but only 8 chose to enter into the Ark. Why do you reject the fact they rejected God on their on doing? It's what the Torah claims.

 

[Cameron143]

Everyone had equal chance to find Grace but only 8 chose to enter into the Ark. Why do you reject the fact they rejected God on their on doing? It's what the Torah claims.

That's the thing about grace...you don't actually go looking for it and find it. It is either given or not. Noah didn't go seeking for it. He simply found that God had extended it. Not one other family found that God extended it to them.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Everyone had equal chance to find Grace but only 8 chose to enter into the Ark. Why do you reject the fact they rejected God on their on doing? It's what the Torah claims.

Look at the similarity of being BLOTTED OUT here:

דכִּי֩ לְיָמִ֨ים ע֜וֹד שִׁבְעָ֗ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ מַמְטִ֣יר עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ אַרְבָּעִ֣ים י֔וֹם וְאַרְבָּעִ֖ים לָ֑יְלָה וּמָחִ֗יתִי אֶת־כָּל־הַיְקוּם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשִׂ֔יתִי מֵעַ֖ל פְּנֵ֥י הָֽאֲדָמָֽה:
4 For in another seven days, I will make it rain upon the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will blot out all beings that I have made, off the face of the earth."

לג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה: מִי אֲשֶׁר חָטָא-לִי, אֶמְחֶנּוּ מִסִּפְרִי.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


Those Noah preached to ended up fulfilling verse 33 and was blotted out. They rejected God which is sinning against God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That's the thing about grace...you don't actually go looking for it and find it. It is either given or not. Noah didn't go seeking for it. He simply found that God had extended it. Not one other family found that God extended it to them.

Look at the similarity of being BLOTTED OUT here:

דכִּי֩ לְיָמִ֨ים ע֜וֹד שִׁבְעָ֗ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ מַמְטִ֣יר עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ אַרְבָּעִ֣ים י֔וֹם וְאַרְבָּעִ֖ים לָ֑יְלָה וּמָחִ֗יתִי אֶת־כָּל־הַיְקוּם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשִׂ֔יתִי מֵעַ֖ל פְּנֵ֥י הָֽאֲדָמָֽה:
4 For in another seven days, I will make it rain upon the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will blot out all beings that I have made, off the face of the earth."

לג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה: מִי אֲשֶׁר חָטָא-לִי, אֶמְחֶנּוּ מִסִּפְרִי.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


Those Noah preached to ended up fulfilling verse 33 and was blotted out. They rejected God which is sinning against God and God blotted them out of His Book.

 

[jamessb]

I’ll give a few examples, but there are so many more (notice the differences):

NIV:
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

- Daniel 3:25 (NIV)

KJV:
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

- Daniel 3:25 (KJV)

Notice this major difference in Acts 8:37!

NIV:
(Uh-oh! There’s nothing there! They left the whole verse out! Why?)

KJV:
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

- Acts 8:37 (KJV)

And in 2 Timothy 2:15, notice the big difference.

NIV:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

KJV:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

So you obviously think that the King James translation is accurate and the NIV is not. Why is that?

 

[Cameron143]

Look at the similarity of being BLOTTED OUT here:

דכִּי֩ לְיָמִ֨ים ע֜וֹד שִׁבְעָ֗ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ מַמְטִ֣יר עַל־הָאָ֔רֶץ אַרְבָּעִ֣ים י֔וֹם וְאַרְבָּעִ֖ים לָ֑יְלָה וּמָחִ֗יתִי אֶת־כָּל־הַיְקוּם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשִׂ֔יתִי מֵעַ֖ל פְּנֵ֥י הָֽאֲדָמָֽה:
4 For in another seven days, I will make it rain upon the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will blot out all beings that I have made, off the face of the earth."

לג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה: מִי אֲשֶׁר חָטָא-לִי, אֶמְחֶנּוּ מִסִּפְרִי.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.


Those Noah preached to ended up fulfilling verse 33 and was blotted out. They rejected God which is sinning against God and God blotted them out of His Book.

You're talking in circles. I already established rejection of God as fallen man's default position towards God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You're talking in circles. I already established rejection of God as fallen man's default position towards God.

I pointed out that God shows all men are in His Book until they sin against God. So it's more than just being a human born into sin but to officially sin against God.

לג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה: מִי אֲשֶׁר חָטָא-לִי, אֶמְחֶנּוּ מִסִּפְרִי.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

 

[jamessb]

I’ll give a few examples, but there are so many more (notice the differences):

NIV:
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

- Daniel 3:25 (NIV)

KJV:
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

- Daniel 3:25 (KJV)

Notice this major difference in Acts 8:37!

NIV:
(Uh-oh! There’s nothing there! They left the whole verse out! Why?)

KJV:
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

- Acts 8:37 (KJV)

And in 2 Timothy 2:15, notice the big difference.

NIV:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

KJV:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

- 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

Here are some responses to your post...

Re Acts 8:37: A few later mss add, with minimal differences in wording, “He said to him, ‘If you believe with your whole heart, you may.’ He replied, ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’” Verse 37 is lacking in P45,74 א A B C 33 614 vg syp,h co. It is clearly not a part of the original text of Acts. The variant is significant in showing how some in the early church viewed the necessity of a confession of faith.

Regarding 2 Timothy 2:15... You clearly don't understand the meaning of this verse. "Study" meant something entirely different in 1611 than it does today. It does not mean to engage in study, to consider attentively, or to read in detail. What it meant in 1611 was "make every effort" or "do your best".

See, in order to read the King James Bible accurately, you must be familiar with 17th Century Englyshe. Clearly, you are not.

If you want to play this kind of game, why does the KJV add these words to Romans 8:1? "... who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1 Ψ 81 365 629 vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mē kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vid M) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). (The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized by too much by grace.)

Hint: You're not debating with someone who is new to discussions about God's Word.

 

[jamessb]

I pointed out that God shows all men are in His Book until they sin against God. So it's more than just being a human born into sin but to officially sin against God.

לג וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה: מִי אֲשֶׁר חָטָא-לִי, אֶמְחֶנּוּ מִסִּפְרִי.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.

There is not a single person who has not sinned. Everyone inherited the sin nature from Adam, so everyone has sinned. They must be born again to have a new nature in Christ and be regarded as sinless.

If Exodus 32:33 means what you think it means, every single person will be blotted out of God's book! Romans 3:22b-23, "For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

There is not a single person who has not sinned. Everyone inherited the sin nature from Adam, so everyone has sinned. They must be born again to have a new nature in Christ and be regarded as sinless.

If Exodus 32:33 means what you think it means, every single person will be blotted out of God's book! Romans 3:22b-23, "For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

הוַיַּ֣רְא יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֥י רַבָּ֛ה רָעַ֥ת הָֽאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ וְכָל־יֵ֨צֶר֙ מַחְשְׁבֹ֣ת לִבּ֔וֹ רַ֥ק רַ֖ע כָּל־הַיּֽוֹם:
5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time.
7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man"

In Genesis chapter 6, God is "not" blotting out man because he was born into sin from Adam but because of verse 5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
Then God gave those people in verse 5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time...120 years to repent