Is Believing/Behaving Correctly a Work/Debt

[Stan_the_Man]

Faith is a Good Work!

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[rogerg]

Another way to put it is that we transition to becoming someone is who is a doer of the law, someone who has faith, and someone will be justified all at the same time, so anyone who is not one is also not the others, but we do not become justified as the result of having first obeyed God's law. Becoming a doer of God's law is part of the content of God's gift of salvation to us, not about us contributing anything towards earning our salvation as the result.

But if your point is that certain attributes of salvation accompany one's salvation, I can
definitely agree with you on that.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith is a Good Work!

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:16-21
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:14-17
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:12
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou give to every man according to his work.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Faith is a gift. Exercising faith is a work.

 

[Soyeong]

Hmmm. Okay, so you're saying that nothing whatsoever is required on man's part in order to become saved but that good works come from being saved? Is that what you believe?

Sorry but I don't understand. Which law(s) are you referring to that we will (must?) satisfy, and to what degree are you saying that must we do them? And what happens if we don't?

No, works can be required in the sense that they intrinsically the way to have the experience of doing those works, such as how doing the work of driving a Ferrari for an hour is intrinsically required in order have the gift of that experience, but are not required in the sense of what we are required to have done first in order to have that opportunity as the result.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so having the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not having that experience. For example, having the experience of honoring our parents is intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not having that experience, so honoring our parents is required to have the gift of that experience.

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must also be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result or the case that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being doers of those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not having that experience, which requires our ongoing participation in the present.

The degree to which someone deprives themselves of having the experience of getting to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the degree to which they are depriving themselves of the gift of Jesus saving them from not having that experience.

 

[Inquisitor]

The significance of doing good works is that not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that is is expressing our faith, and it is by that faith that we are being saved. Our good works in obedience to God testify that He is good, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying that God is good, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we believing in Him. The way to believe in God is by believing that we ought to be doers of His character traits, or in other words, the way to trust in God with all of our heart is by trusting in His character traits to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying God's law rather than leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong.

The Lord has told us the character trait that really matters.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith.

Unconditional love towards others, towers above, everything else in the scripture.

1 John 3:11
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we are to love one another.

 

[Inquisitor]

The point of physical examples is to teach spiritual truths, but in any case, it is true the experience of doing works are intrinsically part of what the content of a gift of salvation is rather than something that we are required to have done first in order to earn it as the result.


Another way to put it is that we transition to becoming someone is who is a doer of the law, someone who has faith, and someone will be justified all at the same time, so anyone who is not one is also not the others, but we do not become justified as the result of having first obeyed God's law. Becoming a doer of God's law is part of the content of God's gift of salvation to us, not about us contributing anything towards earning our salvation as the result.

The question of whether the Gentiles are to follow the law or not, was answered a long time ago.

Acts 15:10-11
Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

The yoke of slavery is the law.

The Gentiles were given four simple instructions to generate harmony, between the Jews and the Gentiles.

We are not under the law or the works of the law.

 

[rogerg]

The degree to which someone deprives themselves of having the experience of getting to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the degree to which they are depriving themselves of the gift of Jesus saving them from not having that experience.

Not trying to be rude, but I don't follow your point and quite possibly am misunderstanding it. But we are NOT to try to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law any longer. Jesus ended the requirement to follow earthly law to achieve spiritual ends, nor by trying to follow it did it ever bring salvation to anyone: we are not to attempt to reestablish nor place ourselves under it. By Christ, those saved are under grace, not law.
If I've misunderstood you, sorry.

[Heb 7:11,12, 18-19, 24, 27 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Soyeong]

The Lord has told us the character trait that really matters.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith.

Unconditional love towards others, towers above, everything else in the scripture.

1 John 3:11
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we are to love one another.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Mosaic Law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of His character. Likewise, God's way is the way in which He practices aspects of His character, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19) and God taught to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law (1 Kings 2:1-3).

Everything that God commanded in the Mosaic Law was for the purpose of teaching us how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, for example if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.

So the position that we are not required to obey the Mosaic Law contradicts the position that it is God's character traits that really matter.

 

[Soyeong]

The question of whether the Gentiles are to follow the law or not, was answered a long time ago.

Acts 15:10-11
Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that yoke that no one could bear in Acts 15:10 was not referring to the Mosaic Law, but to a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's word says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Moreover, Romans 10:5-8 references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim, so to interpret Acts 15:10 as referring to the Mosaic Law as being the heavy burden that no one can bear instead of salvation by circumcision is to deny the word of faith that we proclaim and essentially to interpret the Jerusalem Council as ruling that Gentiles should choose death and a curse instead of choosing to follow Christ. The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that we should follow Jesus instead of following the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so interpreting Acts 15:10 as referring to the Mosaic Law would be interpreting them as ruling that Gentiles shouldn't love God and as denying that the commandments of God are not burdensome.

The yoke of slavery is the law.

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to His law, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free.

The view that we have of obeying someone's instructions matches the view that we have of the giver of those instructions. For example, a wise person is a giver of wise instructions, a wise person is not giver of foolish instructions, but rather a foolish person is a giver of foolish instructions, and it is contradictory to think that someone is both wise and a giver of foolish instructions. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matches his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying the Mosaic Law, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22) while having anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. So express such as negative view of the Mosaic Law that you consider it to be slavery is to express an equally poor view of the Lawgiver for giving it.

[The Gentiles were given four simple instructions to generate harmony, between the Jews and the Gentiles.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentiles believer or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat is as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other instructions that Gentiles should follow, such as the Ten Commandments, the greatest two commandments, and avoid the things spoke against in verses like Romans 1:26-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, and Titus 3:1-3 while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. In Acts 15:19-21, it does not treat it as being an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers, but rather they stated that it was a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying in verse 21 that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In other words, they started Gentiles off with the basics for generating harmony between Jews and Gentiles in order to avoid overwhelming Gentiles with the understanding that they would continue to learn more over time.

We are not under the law or the works of the law.

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romas 3:20), so the position that we should not consider ourselves to under the Mosaic Law is position that we should reject God's gift of salvation.

 

[selahsays]

Worth dying for?

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow them.

No, believing the Gospel is not “works.” Jesus took the stripes; we who believe get the healing. Praise the LORD. Jesus did it all.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[Soyeong]

Not trying to be rude, but I don't follow your point and quite possibly am misunderstanding it.

Sorry if I was not clear. Do you grant that our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experience in the present by obeying God's instructions?

But we are NOT to try to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law any longer. Jesus ended the requirement to follow earthly law to achieve spiritual ends, nor by trying to follow it did it ever bring salvation to anyone: we are not to attempt to reestablish nor place ourselves under it. By Christ, those saved are under grace, not law.
If I've misunderstood you, sorry.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20) while the position that Jesus ended our requirement to obey the Mosaic Law is to reject everything he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith and this is what it means to be under grace while the position that Jesus ended our requirement to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that we don't need salvation.

[Heb 7:11,12, 18-19, 24, 27 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they teaching against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not leave His people any room to do that, which means that if you think that is what the author of Hebrews was doing, then you should follow God instead of the author of Hebrews, though I don't think that interpretation is correct.

[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/QUOTE]
According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on the Book of the Law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against that passage, especially when Paul considered that passage to be Scripture. Rather, all who rely on works of the law come under the curse of not relying on the Book of the Law because they are doing that instead of relying on the Book of the Law. The only way to avoid being cursed by the Book of the Law is by continuing to do everything in it, which is in fully support of continuing to rely on it instead of relying on works of the law.

 

[Soyeong]

No, believing the Gospel is not “works.” Jesus took the stripes; we who believe get the healing. Praise the LORD. Jesus did it all.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus did it all, including spending his ministry teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in all that Jesus accomplished (Acts 21:20).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But if your point is that certain attributes of salvation accompany one's salvation, I can
definitely agree with you on that.

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith is when you hear Gods word and believe and don’t reject it and explain other things

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

Should Christian’s believe what Jesus taught about God the Father and his judgements do you think roger ? About salvation ? Or should we figure out reasons to believe something else about God and salvation and forgivness and repentance ect ?

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[rogerg]

Sorry if I was not clear. Do you grant that our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experience in the present by obeying God's instructions?

No problem - it was probably from a lack of understanding on my part.
What do you consider living in sin to be? Do you believe everyone lives perfectly by trying to follow the Mosaic Law?
Which law do you believe is that which causes eternal judgement if violated?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20) while the position that Jesus ended our requirement to obey the Mosaic Law is to reject everything he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith and this is what it means to be under grace while the position that Jesus ended our requirement to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that we don't need salvation.

Through Christ there are only two laws with eternal spiritual consequence: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law
of sin and death. A person is under only one or the other and only God can take someone from one law to the other.
Repentance is repentance from the trusting in our works for salvation unto the trusting Christ as Saviour, which repentance, can only come from God.
Regarding being freed from the Mosaic law, did you see the verses I posted? They inform us of exactly that - that we have been
freed from the Mosaic Law by Christ. It was He who purified us by His offering alone, and not we who purify ourselves by
the keeping the law.

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I'll repost the verses that show that we are free from the Mosaic Law:

[Heb 7:11,12, 18-19, 24, 27 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they teaching against obeying the Mosaic Law, so God did not leave His people any room to do that, which means that if you think that is what the author of Hebrews was doing, then you should follow God instead of the author of Hebrews, though I don't think that interpretation is correct.

God, through Paul, was the author of Hebrews.

[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on the Book of the Law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against that passage, especially when Paul considered that passage to be Scripture. Rather, all who rely on works of the law come under the curse of not relying on the Book of the Law because they are doing that instead of relying on the Book of the Law. The only way to avoid being cursed by the Book of the Law is by continuing to do everything in it, which is in fully support of continuing to rely on it instead of relying on works of the law.[/QUOTE]

No, don't thinks so.
The Book of the Law is the whole Bible, not just a part of it. The Bible was written by God to be one fully integrated, complete book, so it must be perceived in that way: that all of it is needed for understanding.

Read the verses in proximity to Gal 3:10. They mitigate against your conclusion above.

[Gal 3:8-12 KJV]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[rogerg]

Faith is when you hear Gods word and believe and don’t reject it and explain other things

The question is how does someone obtain faith.

Should Christian’s believe what Jesus taught about God the Father and his judgements do you think roger ? About salvation ? Or should we figure out reasons to believe something else about God and salvation and forgivness and repentance ect ?

Sorry Pilgrimshope, could you be a little more specific - I'm not sure what you're referring to.
What I posted is what Jesus taught.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The question is how does someone obtain faith.



Sorry Pilgrimshope, could you be a little more specific - I'm not sure what you're referring to.
What I posted is what Jesus taught.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith is when you hear Gods word and believe and don’t reject it and explain other things

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

Should Christian’s believe what Jesus taught about God the Father and his judgements do you think roger ?

 

[Soyeong]

No problem - it was probably from a lack of understanding on my part.
What do you consider living in sin to be? Do you believe everyone lives perfectly by trying to follow the Mosaic Law?
Which law do you believe is that which causes eternal judgement if violated?

God's law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so the fact that we can repent after we have not had perfect obedience and still be saved again demonstrates that it is not a requirement for us. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ. The only reason that someone would be required to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

Living in obedience to the Mosaic Law is imply having the goal of obeying what it instructs and repenting when we have not while living in sin is not having that goal.

Through Christ there are only two laws with eternal spiritual consequence: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law
of sin and death. A person is under only one or the other and only God can take someone from one law to the other.
Repentance is repentance from the trusting in our works for salvation unto the trusting Christ as Saviour, which repentance, can only come from God.
Regarding being freed from the Mosaic law, did you see the verses I posted? They inform us of exactly that - that we have been
freed from the Mosaic Law by Christ. It was He who purified us by His offering alone, and not we who purify ourselves by
the keeping the law.

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

In Romans 7:25-8:7, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin, which held him captive, which was waging war against the law of his mind, and which he served with his flesh. so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Sprit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and Christ and the Spirit are God, and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so it is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. Furthermore, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

I'll repost the verses that show that we are free from the Mosaic Law:

[Heb 7:11,12, 18-19, 24, 27 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal instructions for how to testify about His eternal character traits, which is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). For example, the way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid (Psalms 119:160), and if the way to testify about God's righteousness were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit murder or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

God, through Paul, was the author of Hebrews.

Paul was a servant of God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret him as promoting rebellion against what He has commanded. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so which should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though again the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against obeying anything that He has commanded.

No, don't thinks so.
The Book of the Law is the whole Bible, not just a part of it. The Bible was written by God to be one fully integrated, complete book, so it must be perceived in that way: that all of it is needed for understanding.

We should understand "Book of the Law" in accordance with the context of which it was written and not referring to books that hand't yet been written. In any case, in remains true that the curse is for not relying on the Book of the Law, so someone comes under that curse by relying on something other that the Book of the Law, such as works of the law. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted the law of works with the law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and the law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.

Read the verses in proximity to Gal 3:10. They mitigate against your conclusion above.

[Gal 3:8-12 KJV]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us form our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as them, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living obedience to it. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2 contrast the righteous who are living by faith with those who are not living in obedience to God's law, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

God is trustworthy, therefore the Mosaic Law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting His law and it is contradictory to think that we should trust God for salvation, but not in what He has instructed, and to interpret Galatians 3:10 as referring to God's instructions as being untrustworthy/not of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the trustworthiness/faithfulness of God. In other words, the Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh, but not in God's word.

 

[rogerg]

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith is when you hear Gods word and believe and don’t reject it and explain other things

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

Should Christian’s believe what Jesus taught about God the Father and his judgements do you think roger ?

Still not sure of your question, but I will say that the things you mention above come as a result of being saved, not
to become saved. Jesus was edifying those whom He had chosen to salvation to teach them of things spiritual. That is how
the saved come to spiritual knowledge - they just don't wake up one morning knowing everything there is to know - they have to be taught such.
By the way, the "hearing" is spiritual, not human hearing. It comes with being born-again through the Holy Spirit, from being saved. True faith comes the same way. Neither are given to everyone.

[Eph 4:12-15 KJV]
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

 

[rogerg]

and still be saved again

Only saved once.

God's law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so the fact that we can repent after we have not had perfect obedience and still be saved again demonstrates that it is not a requirement for us. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ. The only reason that someone would be required to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

Living in obedience to the Mosaic Law is imply having the goal of obeying what it instructs and repenting when we have not while living in sin is not having that goal.


In Romans 7:25-8:7, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin, which held him captive, which was waging war against the law of his mind, and which he served with his flesh. so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Sprit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and Christ and the Spirit are God, and the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so it is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. Furthermore, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.


While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal instructions for how to testify about His eternal character traits, which is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). For example, the way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid (Psalms 119:160), and if the way to testify about God's righteousness were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit murder or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.


Paul was a servant of God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret him as promoting rebellion against what He has commanded. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so which should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though again the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against obeying anything that He has commanded.


We should understand "Book of the Law" in accordance with the context of which it was written and not referring to books that hand't yet been written. In any case, in remains true that the curse is for not relying on the Book of the Law, so someone comes under that curse by relying on something other that the Book of the Law, such as works of the law. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted the law of works with the law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and the law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us form our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as them, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living obedience to it. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2 contrast the righteous who are living by faith with those who are not living in obedience to God's law, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

God is trustworthy, therefore the Mosaic Law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting His law and it is contradictory to think that we should trust God for salvation, but not in what He has instructed, and to interpret Galatians 3:10 as referring to God's instructions as being untrustworthy/not of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the trustworthiness/faithfulness of God. In other words, the Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh, but not in God's word.

I'm sure this is getting as wearisome to you as it is to me, so I'll just say one thing upon which everything
else I post is/has been based, and that is that Christ alone is the Saviour. Man can play no part in his salvation - it is obtained solely as a gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God to those who in no way deserve, or even desire it. If you can comprehend that, then you can comprehend the rest. I'm kind of tired now so I might try to address your post in more detail tomorrow,
events permitting.

 

[wattie]

Anything that someone believes they must DO in order to become saved, whether it be in the self-producing of one's own faith or by the doing of anything else, makes it labor (though not necessarily it being of a physical labor variety), but nevertheless, still being their labor because they are required to DO/ACHIEVE it. Not only is it a labor, but by the necessity of having to satisfy it in order to become saved - or should they not do so and thereby not become saved- by that, making it a law, but the Bible makes abundantly clear that no one can be saved in their attempt to satisfy any law no matter how slight nor how great that attempt might be: it is binary.
The only way that any of the requirements for salvation can be satisfied without being work is if they are imputed to someone freely through/by Christ fully as a gift. This is what makes Christ the Saviour (as the Bible tells us that He is) and we but the recipients of salvation and not our own co-saviours.

Yes..and calling out for salvation is not a work, but a response to conviction on the soul.