Predestination is misunderstood...

[Charlie_2024]

Those verses are not from man's perspective, they are inspired by the Holy Spirit to confirm what people saw and how they saw it take place.

Luke wrote this some 20+ years after it happened when the Holy Spirit inspired Him what to say.

I was trying to point out the fact that we can only see the present and the recorded past. But God sees everything from the beginning of time to the end of time, as if it had already come to pass. He is also everywhere at the same time, and He's not limited in any way.

I think most of us have difficulty getting our minds around God's absolute sovereignty over every aspect of His creation, including salvation itself. My understanding is that only those who God chose to save before the world was made, will embrace the gospel. Those He purposed to leave in their sin, will always reject the gospel because the gospel is foolishness to the natural man

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So your now saying the English wording of genesis 3 is wrong.

Ok so after all your attempts, like at least 10 or so, probably more to dismiss the suggestion that was made, which is why did God not want to know what Adam and Eve did before the fall,

Which does not stop God from being all knowing.

You finally come up with this. 😂

In the English you will read an ordinary snake. In the Hebrew you will read a fortune teller/divination. So yes, the English is a horrible translation in Genesis 3.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I was trying to point out the fact that we can only see the present and the recorded past. But God sees everything from the beginning of time to the end of time, as if it had already come to pass. He is also everywhere at the same time, and He's not limited in any way.

I think most of us have difficulty getting our minds around God's absolute sovereignty over every aspect of His creation, including salvation itself. My understanding is that only those who God chose to save before the world was made, will embrace the gospel. Those He purposed to leave in their sin, will always reject the gospel because the gospel is foolishness to the natural man

I believe after enough years of studying the Bible, living for God through trials and victories, suffering loss but learning to hold onto God, you come to a point when you read the Bible you start to see and know how God works in many ways. So it's not as much of understanding the sovereignty of God rather than knowing He's done it this way before many times and no need to rethink it.

 

[Charlie_2024]

It is foolish to think everything true in the bible has been already explained to us by our forebears. That attitude is why the Pharisees hated and rejected Jesus.

It is why Paul said "If any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 1 Cor. 8:2

The more we know, the more we know we don't know. It is these who know very little who think they know everything.

Highly educated theologians have been studying the Bible for approximately 2000 years. During that time, they have interpreted and explained everything in detail, so there is nothing more for them to learn.

It's not wise to ignore all their hard work and think that modern man has found something new which they missed. God has been silent for 2000 years, He hasn't said a single word to us since the cannon of scripture was closed 2000 years ago.

Todays Christians are always wanting to have their ears tickled with some new sensational Bible doctrine. The truth is that we only have the old scriptures, so it's just the same old message and there's absolutely nothing new to mention.

God didn't tell us much, so we can only work with what He revealed. There's a lot more we don't know because God kept it from us. We don't know why God is hiding so many other things, but we can assume that He kept those secret because we're not equipped to handle those deep spiritual things with our small earthly minds.

 

[Charlie_2024]

He doesn't save His elect, He elects His saved.

This what the OP is on about.

The OP is welcome to share his views, but he can't expect everyone to agree. There are many different interpretations, so nobody can claim that their view is the only correct one. All we can do is present our case

 

[Mem]

The Scriptures are quite clear that spiritually dead men hate God and would never choose Him unless they are first made spiritually alive and this is why salvation is of and and belongs to the Lord and not the choice of men.

View attachment 261463

You've offered verses that are summarized according to a leaning toward your particular brand of translation and pulled them out of the context by which they can be understood. For example, John 8:43 speaks toward a state of mind of which is extrapolated by the following verse, "You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out his desires." They did not want to hear (listen; comprehend by hearing) the Words of Christ, and so they could not percieve it (i.e., "Why do you not understand what I'm saying (Romans 8:43a)?"
The same thing happens all the time here, in these forums.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In the English you will read an ordinary snake. In the Hebrew you will read a fortune teller/divination.

Where did you come up with this fanciful interpretation? Take note regarding Genesis 3:1:
Strong's Concordance
nachash: a serpent
Original Word: נָחָשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: nachash
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-khawsh')
Definition: a serpent

And Brown-Driver-Briggs is no different:
I. נָחָשׁ noun masculineGenesis 3:1 serpent (Late Hebrew id.; Arabic

serpent, viper (Lane406anything hunted) is compare by LagM, i, 230; BN 50, 188 BaEs 48, but improbable; Arabic

see below [נָחַשׁ below; on formation compare LagBN 50); — absolute ׳נ Amos 5:19 +; construct נְחַשׁ Numbers 21:9 2t.; plural נְחָשִׁים Numbers 21:6; Jeremiah 8:17; —

 

[Mem]

So how would you define "spiritually dead"?

Since it was an attempt to convey my definition to you that generated this question, I don't see that exerting any more energy toward re-re-defining it would be much more than more wasted energy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

everyone is indeed chosen either for salvation or damnation...

That is just nonsense. You gave Ephesians 1:4 as an example. So let's take a really close look at it and the next verse:

DOES THIS SAY "... THAT WE SHOULD BE SAVED?"
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

DOES THIS SAY "PREDESTINED US TO BE SAVED?"
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

As usual people have been taking verses and saying they mean something when they mean something else.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
When will we see the kingdom of God?
Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

Christ is speaking of the glory of His Kingdom judgement that was soon to fall upon those living in Jerusalem.

Christ's Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom.

Luk_17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

So, we will never "see" the kingdom?

So, what is the context of the verse you are citing? Are you trying to prove that no one will see the kingdom because it is spiritual and therefore invisible?

Luke 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them,
"The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed. 21 Nor will they say, "
Look, here it is!" or "Look, there it is!" for behold, the kingdom of God is in the your midst.
And he said to his disciples,
"The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, "Look there!" or "Look here!" Do not go out or follow them. 24For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the the Son of Man be in His day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise just as it was in the days of Lot - they were eating and drinking and buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all - 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.... etc.

How does this shine light on Jesus saying to Nicodemus, "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"?

Does it say that unless one is born again he cannot believe? No, it does not.
Seeing the kingdom is seeing the King in the glory of His kingdom. Jesus told another audience,
Matt. 16:27 "For the Son of Man is to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay every man for what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom."
17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. 2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to the Moses and Elijah talking with Him.

So here we see the King manifesting the Father's glory along with two angels/messengers. This fits Jesus' description in Matt. 16:27.

In the Luke 17 passage, from which you cited v. 21, the Son of Man is appearing in His Father's glory. in v. 24
To those who are not born again, Jesus coming in His kingdom will be a blinding light. They won't see the Man. But those who have been born again, will see the Man clothed in glory.

To the unbelievers, the kingdom is not coming with signs they will be able to recognise as precursors beforehand. The veiled kingdom of God, in the form of the common-looking King, was already in their midst, but the unbelieving Pharisees could not recognise the signs of its veiled presence among them.

Very few people see the Son coming in His kingdom before the Lord's return. But those who are born again will see it at His coming. We do not see the kingdom of heaven when we believe the gospel. It is among us invisibly, in a veiled form, but we see evidence of its invisible presence. However, at His coming it will be visible as a King and glory for those who have been born again. And at His coming it will come unexpectedly as a thief and be blinding light. They will not see the King as man clothed in glory.

This analysis debunks the idea that the judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70 was Jesus coming in glory, the kingdom coming.
It also debunks the idea that being born again immediately enables us to see the kingdom of God.
It also debunks the idea seeing the kingdom is having faith. Having faith is not seeing, because we walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[PaulThomson]

Did God lie in what He said below, because Adam ending up living to the ripe old age of 930?

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

He died spiritually when God removed His spirit from him and began to die physically.

Scripture is clear that all have lost the image and likeness of God, are spiritually dead and cursed, slaves to sin and Satan, his children and bear his evil image unless they are born again by grace in Christ.

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Eph_2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

1Pe_4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Joh_5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Luk_9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God."

I don't see "spiritually dead" in any of those verses you are using to justify inferring from the Bible that "spiritually dead" is areal thing, and then filling the term with all kinds of baggage.

I have a post analysing Luke 9:60 and the meaning of dead therein, and touching on John 9:60. Did you read it. Would you like to engage with me on it? Or do you just want to keep making bald assertions about what you think the Bible means?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Where did you come up with this fanciful interpretation? Take note regarding Genesis 3:1:
Strong's Concordance
nachash: a serpent
Original Word: נָחָשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: nachash
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-khawsh')
Definition: a serpent

And Brown-Driver-Briggs is no different:
I. נָחָשׁ noun masculineGenesis 3:1 serpent (Late Hebrew id.; Arabic

serpent, viper (Lane406anything hunted) is compare by LagM, i, 230; BN 50, 188 BaEs 48, but improbable; Arabic

see below [נָחַשׁ below; on formation compare LagBN 50); — absolute ׳נ Amos 5:19 +; construct נְחַשׁ Numbers 21:9 2t.; plural נְחָשִׁים Numbers 21:6; Jeremiah 8:17; —

From the Torah. The correct word is Nāḥāš and it means fortune telling/divination

Nāḥāš (נחש‎), Hebrew for "snake", is also associated with divination, including the verb form meaning "to practice divination or fortune-telling". Nāḥāš occurs in the Torah to identify the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

I trust the Jewish translation of Nāḥāš over the English attempts.

 

[PaulThomson]

selahsays said -
"See? God is God and we’re not.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there until they have watered the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

- Isaiah 55:8-11"

My response -
So, maybe people should stop telling God how big or small he has to be to be truly a God worth serving, or how much He has to know to be truly a God worth trusting, and instead limit our assertions about Him to what He actually says about Himself in scripture.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

From the Torah. The correct word is Nāḥāš and it means fortune telling/divination

Nāḥāš (נחש‎), Hebrew for "snake", is also associated with divination, including the verb form meaning "to practice divination or fortune-telling". Nāḥāš occurs in the Torah to identify the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

I trust the Jewish translation of Nāḥāš over the English attempts.

I will also add, it does mean snake. But when God told Moses what happened in the Garden of Eden, God used Nāḥāš to indicate this was not an ordinary snake.

 

[PaulThomson]

Here we go then...

Explain this, using your understanding, please..

​

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for ​

you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your ​

right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that ​

one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." Matthew 5:29-30​

​

​

Welcome All

Sunday service 11 Am.
Pastor J. Cameron. ​

Pastor of the "One Eye.. One Hand" Church.​

​

​

No collections are taken.​

We are not looking for a hand out.​

.......


....

​

Your right hand NEVER causes you to sin. Your right eye NEVER causes you to sin. What does cause us to sin that we are to cut out then? James 1:14-15

 

[maxamir]

that's still not the question, the scripture says the secrets belong to God.

I'm asking do you know everything about God

I know exactly everything about God that He has decreed me to know about Him.

If you do not make your point soon, you will be ignored for being a time waster.

 

[maxamir]

You've offered verses that are summarized according to a leaning toward your particular brand of translation and pulled them out of the context by which they can be understood. For example, John 8:43 speaks toward a state of mind of which is extrapolated by the following verse, "You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out his desires." They did not want to hear (listen; comprehend by hearing) the Words of Christ, and so they could not percieve it (i.e., "Why do you not understand what I'm saying (Romans 8:43a)?"
The same thing happens all the time here, in these forums.

Scripture interprets Scripture and that is what you have been given in context of the whole of Scripture which points to Christ.

Does salvation belong to the Lord or the choice of men?

 

[Charlie_2024]

I believe after enough years of studying the Bible, living for God through trials and victories, suffering loss but learning to hold onto God, you come to a point when you read the Bible you start to see and know how God works in many ways. So it's not as much of understanding the sovereignty of God rather than knowing He's done it this way before many times and no need to rethink it.

I appreciate the fact that we grow and mature in our walk with the Lord and Bible study is very important. But I also believe we need to be joined to the Body of Christ in a Church where a Minister can guide us in our walk.

I don't believe that we can serve the Lord effectively outside of the Church. The Lord instituted the Church for our benefit, so I don't think an individual is equipped to interpret the Bible in a private setting. I'm not saying it's not possible, but we should confirm with our Minister that the things we learned in our private study are biblically correct.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

From the Torah. The correct word is Nāḥāš and it means fortune telling/divination

Nāḥāš (נחש‎), Hebrew for "snake", is also associated with divination, including the verb form meaning "to practice divination or fortune-telling". Nāḥāš occurs in the Torah to identify the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

I trust the Jewish translation of Nāḥāš over the English attempts.

I will also add, it does mean snake. But when God told Moses what happened in the Garden of Eden, God used Nāḥāš to indicate this was not an ordinary snake.

In the old writings it is also written as the old verb 'Le-Nachesh' {לנחש} – which meant 'to make a witchcraft' in the Hebrew Bible

It's specific for Genesis 3:1

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I appreciate the fact that we grow and mature in our walk with the Lord and Bible study is very important. But I also believe we need to be joined to the Body of Christ in a Church where a Minister can guide us in our walk.

I don't believe that we can serve the Lord effectively outside of the Church. The Lord instituted the Church for our benefit, so I don't think an individual is equipped to interpret the Bible in a private setting. I'm not saying it's not possible, but we should confirm with our Minister that the things we learned in our private study are biblically correct.

I have a staff and we hash everything.
We discuss what I read here as well.
I have a pc in the office and some times it is them answering but we're in agreement.