Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
113
62
Jesus even says in Matthew 13 “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

This is a one time special thing and had any of us been there we would have been the "others are not permitted."

The fact this verse is wrongly used in Reformed doctrine just shows they don't have a clue about the Bible and what Jesus said in that verse.
No it's not. Taking one verse and not employing the entire passage corrupts the intended meaning. Jesus clearly goes on to say that they would be converted if they had such hearing. What do you understand conversion to be?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
113
You can say what you want but if you do not go by what the Bible says you are just full of baloney. You have to hear the Gospel first before the Holy Spirit can work to impart Faith.
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated.

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
113
You need to HEAR so the Holy Spirit can impart Faith to believe. If you never believe there's no Repentance and Regeneration.
One needs to be regenerated, made alive before they can hear unto Faith. In case you not aware, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. So explain how one without the Spirit can hear spiritually and believe ?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated.

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
One needs to Hear the Gospel before Regeneration begins. Faith happens before Regeneration.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
One needs to be regenerated, made alive before they can hear unto Faith. In case you not aware, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. So explain how one without the Spirit can hear spiritually and believe ?
One needs to Hear the Gospel before Regeneration begins. Faith happens before Regeneration.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,276
245
63
I could care less. No verse tells me to be kind to false doctrine.
But you are supposed to be kind and respectful when it comes to sharing the the truth of the Gospel.

1 Peter 3:15
15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect...
NIV

But these two attributes are no more in your spiritual arsenal than intelligent, thoughtful, honest answers to honest questions are. It's no wonder, therefore, that your only defense for the different gospel that you believe is to obnoxiously and disrespectfully shout the opposition down.
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
122
43
Santa Fe NM
One needs to be regenerated, made alive before they can hear unto Faith. In case you not aware, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. So explain how one without the Spirit can hear spiritually and believe ?
Since you're not aware, "faith" is not mentioned in Galatians 5:22. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

"Faithfulness" is not "faith".

Faithful: loyal, firm, or true to something or someone.
Faith: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,276
245
63
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated.

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Now you're getting in to Total Depravity area -- the foundational Doctrine of Grace. (y)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
113
No it's not. Taking one verse and not employing the entire passage corrupts the intended meaning. Jesus clearly goes on to say that they would be converted if they had such hearing. What do you understand conversion to be?
Its the same as the Gospel is hid to the non elect lost, so they cant believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


The word hid kalyptō :
  1. to hide, veil
    1. to hinder the knowledge of a thing
And its in the perfect tense and passive, so its being hid from them by God, and its completed once and for all

The perfect tense means:
In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated

Action that has been completed in the past yet has results occurring in the present are expressed by the perfect tense

https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm#tense

So the Gospel is hid to the non elect as a Salvation message, because they are lost forever
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
113
62
When Jesus died and their sins were officially forgiven.
Up to that point, they were appeased by obeying the purification and sin Laws.
This doesn't answer the question. I'll try another way? Were any in the OT saved?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
113
One needs to Hear the Gospel before Regeneration begins. Faith happens before Regeneration.
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,268
548
113
Since you're not aware, "faith" is not mentioned in Galatians 5:22. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

"Faithfulness" is not "faith".

Faithful: loyal, firm, or true to something or someone.
Faith: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion
It is mentioned Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And they are the same, why you think its the same word ? DUH Faithfulness is a person living by Faith
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
113
62
Its the same as the Gospel is hid to the non elect lost, so they cant believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


The word hid kalyptō :
  1. to hide, veil
    1. to hinder the knowledge of a thing
And its in the perfect tense and passive, so its being hid from them by God, and its completed once and for all

The perfect tense means:
In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated

Action that has been completed in the past yet has results occurring in the present are expressed by the perfect tense

https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm#tense

So the Gospel is hid to the non elect as a Salvation message, because they are lost forever
Preaching to the choir. I wasn't asking the question because I was looking for understanding; rather, I was trying to understand how other posters come to their understanding.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
No it's not. Taking one verse and not employing the entire passage corrupts the intended meaning. Jesus clearly goes on to say that they would be converted if they had such hearing. What do you understand conversion to be?
Jesus said you are permitted and others are not.
He was talking to the Disciples, no one else.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,276
245
63
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ

Without Faith, what are you believing in?
I asked you to prove your claim that faith precedes regeneration. The text above does not address the topic of regeneration; therefore, your answer is a non sequitur.

Allow me to steer your nose in the right direction: Study diligently and carefully Jn 3:1-21 and then tell me if Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must do something if wants to see the kingdom of God, or whether He was telling the Pharisee that something must be done to him before he can see (understand) the kingdom of God. Let's see how good your exegetical skills are.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
You cant hear the Gospel Spiritually without being born again, regenerated. Faith is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Jesus specifically said one must be of God to hear His words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Vs 43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Paul says to believe you first must hear.
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Most of your Doctrine is Paul but on this you ignore him.
So your doctrine is based on convenience.
Typical.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
I asked you to prove your claim that faith precedes regeneration. The text above does not address the topic of regeneration; therefore, your answer is a non sequitur.

Allow me to steer your nose in the right direction: Study diligently and carefully Jn 3:1-21 and then tell me if Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must do something if wants to see the kingdom of God, or whether He was telling the Pharisee that something must be done to him before he can see (understand) the kingdom of God. Let's see how good your exegetical skills are.
Paul said Faith, which you need Faith to believe, only comes by hearing.
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Most of your Doctrine is Paul but on this you ignore him.
So your doctrine is based on convenience.
Typical.