Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

yeah and nay laddy.

It looks like the sawdust has got up your nose again 😊

How is it irrelevant.. surely the condition of a mans will is more important than whether his will is free or not. 🤔

There are only two conditions of a man's will, either bound to sin or freed by grace.

We were discussing what the will is and what it does which, is to make choices. It makes no matter the status of the will as it will make choices whether it is free or not. The difference is the object of it's choice. One is bound to sin the other is free by grace to choose God if one desires the goodness of God. Even after salvation, one must continue to walk in the Spirit by means of grace. If not, one will necessarily be walking after the flesh and be bound to sin again.

How do you think the bound will is set free to make a choice for God if not freed by grace?

Try understanding the actual discussion and not going off on your tangents. I think the bolt through your head has scrambled your brain.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

There are only two conditions of a man's will, either bound to sin or freed by grace.

We were discussing what the will is and what it does which, is to make choices. It makes no matter the status of the will as it will make choices whether it is free or not. The difference is the object of it's choice. One is bound to sin the other is free by grace to choose God if one desires the goodness of God. Even after salvation, one must continue to walk in the Spirit by means of grace. If not, one will necessarily be walking after the flesh and be bound to sin again.

How do you think the bound will is set free to make a choice for God if not freed by grace?

Try understanding the actual discussion and not going off on your tangents. I think the bolt through your head has scrambled your brain.

This is Willfully willing me to to bow down to your understanding of will. Yes your free inside your mind to think, speak.

But this is your brain thinking, where as your will is a nature an emotion.

And to be honest I think you could do with a few jolts 😋

Scripture is clear the whole world is imprisoned to sin.

Imprisoned means there's no way to escape other than to be set free by Christ. But then your under the will of Christ,

The whole world that is imprisoned by sin is also bound by the law. God is controlling the world with his law, and he controls your destiny. You don't control your destiny in this world.

Such people can think they have free will to escape the law, and many people find ways to live in sin and not get caught. They might think they have free will, but what they really have is a corrupted will.

There head is telling them there free to do what they want.

Just like the crack heads singing im free to do what I want any old time.

Yeah the many destined for hell are all saying the same thing..

Then there's the Freddy Mercury people dressing up as women singing I want to break free.

 

[sawdust]

This is Willfully willing me to to bow down to your understanding of will. Yes your free inside your mind to think, speak.

But this is your brain thinking, where as your will is a nature an emotion.

And to be honest I think you could do with a few jolts 😋

Scripture is clear the whole world is imprisoned to sin.

Imprisoned means there's no way to escape other than to be set free by Christ. But then your under the will of Christ,

The whole world that is imprisoned by sin is also bound by the law. God is controlling the world with his law, and he controls your destiny. You don't control your destiny in this world.

Such people can think they have free will to escape the law, and many people find ways to live in sin and not get caught. They might think they have free will, but what they really have is a corrupted will.

There head is telling them there free to do what they want.

Just like the crack heads singing im free to do what I want any old time.

Yeah the many destined for hell are all saying the same thing..

Then there's the Freddy Mercury people dressing up as women singing I want to break free.

I really don't know how many times I must say a man's will must be freed by grace before it sinks into your brain. Without grace the will is bound to sin. Can you not understand that message?

Volition is not an emotion. Emotions come and go according to circumstance, we don't choose our emotions. They are a very basic part of the brain's working. It requires will and reason to keep them under control.

You are only under the will of Christ as you are transformed in your thinking and are led by the Spirit. Neither of these things are automatic which is why the scripture says we must work out our salvation with trembling. (Phil.2:12) We have been given all things in Christ, He holds them like in a trust account. This is known as positional truth but if we want them experientially then we need to co-operate with His plan. Those who (after salvation) walk according to the flesh and lean on their own understanding will not know the depths, heights and breadth of the riches of God's grace. They will not know how to say, as Paul did, I am content in all things. (Phil.4:11) He had to learn that, it is not automatic.

And you are right that in the end God's will will prevail, but this does not alleviate man of his response ability when the Lord ensures all men know the truth of His existence. (Rom.1:19)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I really don't know how many times I must say a man's will must be freed by grace before it sinks into your brain. Without grace the will is bound to sin. Can you not understand that message?

Volition is not an emotion. Emotions come and go according to circumstance, we don't choose our emotions. They are a very basic part of the brain's working. It requires will and reason to keep them under control.

You are only under the will of Christ as you are transformed in your thinking and are led by the Spirit. Neither of these things are automatic which is why the scripture says we must work out our salvation with trembling. (Phil.2:12) We have been given all things in Christ, He holds them like in a trust account. This is known as positional truth but if we want them experientially then we need to co-operate with His plan. Those who (after salvation) walk according to the flesh and lean on their own understanding will not know the depths, heights and breadth of the riches of God's grace. They will not know how to say, as Paul did, I am content in all things. (Phil.4:11) He had to learn that, it is not automatic.

And you are right that in the end God's will will prevail, but this does not alleviate man of his response ability when the Lord ensures all men know the truth of His existence. (Rom.1:19)

can you will something like God can,.

This is one meaning of will.

Explain how volition the ability to make a choice has any thing to do with that.

Another meaning of will

Is good will and peace to you.
will is expressed as grace in this instance.


Then we have a will we leave to people

Then you have a will to live.

Honestly sir tell me how any of these explanations of will can't be controlled.

God can control his will.

You can strengthen your will

You can weaken your will.

You can knowingly weaken your will, and knowingly strengthen your will.

You know your losing the will to live, so you choose to do something about it.

 

[sawdust]

can you will something like God can,.

This is one meaning of will.

Explain how volition the ability to make a choice has any thing to do with that.

Another meaning of will

Is good will and peace to you.
will is expressed as grace in this instance.


Then we have a will we leave to people

Then you have a will to live.

Honestly sir tell me how any of these explanations of will can't be controlled.

God can control his will.

You can strengthen your will

You can weaken your will.

You can knowingly weaken your will, and knowingly strengthen your will.

You know your losing the will to live, so you choose to do something about it.

You can play your silly games on your own thanks if you are unwilling to understand the context.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You can play your silly games on your own thanks if you are unwilling to understand the context.

So you can totally dismiss 5 different meanings of will that can be controlled by choice (volition) in favour of will being the same as choice 🤔

And you claim I'm the one playing word games

 

[Charlie_2024]

Those in him; believers, who make up his body. The church, as a body was pre-destined to a certain fate: conformity to the image of the son of God.

Those who do not believe... have a different destination.

You and I are not pre-destined to be in or out of that body; as we have a choice to believe or not believe.

There are many conflicting views on the subject of election, predestination and the chosen before the foundation of the world. The opposing views divided the Church around 500 years ago.

The Church remains divided today, each has it's own interpretation and none are willing to change their stance on the issue.
Many individual Church members don't agree with the views of their Church Ministers on this issue, but they tolerate them for the sake of unity.

Most Church Ministers avoid the subject altogether, as it's too controversial. The debate has been going on for 500 years now and neither side is willing to give an inch.

Bible verses like: Roans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

If these verses are to be taken literally, then it means that God predestines people to salvation before they're born. Some say that God looked into the future and saw who would believe and who would reject the gospel. Others say that God draws the individual to Himself, even though the person is not seeking Him.
There are many other views in the Church as well, so I can't see how the Church will ever reach a consensus on the matter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Please read the bolded and underlined portion. It does not say "predestined to be saved" or "predestined to be justified". You automatically assumed that.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Please read the bolded and underlined portion. It does not say "predestined to be saved" or "predestined to be justified". You automatically assumed that.

My understanding is, that God done all those things to save us from the punishment our sins deserve. Being justified, glorified and made heirs of His victory and reward, are all added blessings.
The main reason Christ suffered and paid the paid the penalty for our sins, was to save us from condemnation. That's how I understand it, I'm happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted those verses.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My understanding is, that God done all those things to save us from the punishment our sins deserve. Being justified, glorified and made heirs of His victory and reward, are all added blessings.
The main reason Christ suffered and paid the paid the penalty for our sins, was to save us from condemnation. That's how I understand it, I'm happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted those verses.

You have not misinterpreted anything. But you have automatically assumed that "to be conformed to the image of His Son" means to be saved. However what it means is to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. And the epistles are full of teachings regarding this.

 

[sawdust]

So you can totally dismiss 5 different meanings of will that can be controlled by choice (volition) in favour of will being the same as choice 🤔

And you claim I'm the one playing word games

Your volition is your will. You know the context in which we were discussing it so don't give me the run around and pretend you're the victim.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Your volition is your will. You know the context in which we were discussing it so don't give me the run around and pretend you're the victim.

I Dont see how I'm playing the victim here 🤔

I asked you a simple question, the true meaning of the word will, is the ability to will something,

I'm asking you if you can will something to happen.

What your asking me to do, is to think about something logically not possible for a man to do.

I've heard of people bending spoons with there will, but I don't think they have,

I'm listening to all theese people express free will, with totally puzzling deep thinking that people don't understand.

Your comment of me playing the victim is absurd.

If anyon is a victim it's the poor people who have been Brainwashed into thinking they have free will.

God wills your heart to transform with his grace, which is his good will.

So the only thing about your will is the ability to surrender to his will.

 

[sawdust]

I asked you a simple question, the true meaning of the word will, is the ability to will something,

And you've been told, not only by me. It is the expression of your desire. You're the one who keeps trying to make it something it's not. No-one has said having a will enables you to fulfill your desire, in fact quite the contrary.

So the only thing about your will is the ability to surrender to his will.

 

[sawdust]

So the only thing about your will is the ability to surrender to his will.

And this is what has been said to you many, many times already but you can't seem to comprehend what is said. The only way you can surrender your will is if first God applies his grace so your will is free from the bondage of sin so you can make the choice to do God's will. But the choice is yours and yours alone. God does not co-erce, manipulate or in any way force the response from you.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Learn to understand what is said before you make any more comments.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm listening to all these people express free will, with totally puzzling deep thinking that people don't understand.

There is nothing complicated about free will. You make choices and decisions daily because your will is free to do so. No one compels you to sin, as James makes it very clear. That too is your choice. No one compels you to do what is right, but your conscience tells you to do so. For believers, the Holy Spirit tells you what is righteous and what is not.

When it comes to the Gospel it is "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION". How can that be? (1) the Word of God is a living Word, and (2) the Holy Spirit accompanies the living Word each time the Gospel is preached. Thus sinners are convinced and convicted. But each person must freely RESPOND to the Gospel. God forces no one to be saved, neither does He elect anyone to be saved. That would violate His own will.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

And this is what has been said to you many, many times already but you can't seem to comprehend what is said. The only way you can surrender your will is if first God applies his grace so your will is free from the bondage of sin so you can make the choice to do God's will. But the choice is yours and yours alone. God does not co-erce, manipulate or in any way force the response from you.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Learn to understand what is said before you make any more comments.

what your not understanding is it is not your will,

Your will was born under God. He created it

God created everything even your will.

Your choice has nothing to do with your will.

If your will was free you would be God.

You would be able to will anything

You can't

 

[sawdust]

what your not understanding is it is not your will,

Your will was born under God. He created it

God created everything even your will.

Your choice has nothing to do with your will.

If your will was free you would be God.

You would be able to will anything

You can't

Rubbish! Of course it's your will. You would be a programmed automaton if it wasn't your will.

 

[sawdust]

what your not understanding is it is not your will,

Your will was born under God. He created it

God created everything even your will.

Your choice has nothing to do with your will.

If your will was free you would be God.

You would be able to will anything

You can't

Choice has everything to do with the will.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Choice has everything to do with the will.

you might want to check out the thousands upon thousands of head wrecking cabbaging doctrines,.centred around free will. Before you make this choice 😊

Free will is atheists dream ticket to paradise. Freewill has originated from people who have gone mad trying to understand there own mind. ( The emotional people in crisis).

 

[Genez]

Your volition is your will. You know the context in which we were discussing it so don't give me the run around and pretend you're the victim.

Careful... Maybe he has multiple personality disorder, and only one personality has the volition of the group.

I once read about it. It happened to someone who was struck by lightning.