Anyone who reads Matthew 5:17-19 can see that you are the one who is lying, so shame on your for being so obvious about it.
The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It
- Thread starter hijitodedios198
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus does not use the word Torah in Matthew 5:17-19. Your pretense of quoting Him while you put words in His mouth is shameful.
Laws in regard to temple practice require there to be a temple in which to practice them. When the Israelites were exiled in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which contains instructions in regard to temple practice that they couldn't obey because the temple had just been destroyed, but they returned to the and because they were faithful to obey the laws that they could obey.
While I agree that the transgression of certain laws carries the penalty of death by stoning, the Torah does not instruct us to go around stoning people, but rather it instructs to bring the people accused of breaking those laws before a judge who does a thorough investigation, that the witnesses are to throw the first stone, that no one is to be put to death without two or three witness, that the penalty is to be given to the witness instead if they testify falsely, and that a ransom is permitted except in the case of murder.
They pick and choose which ones they say we are to follow.
Meanwhile Soyeong claims the 613 mitzvot are written on our hearts .
Let's say the torah is a schoolteacher. I remember schoolteachers, and now I am grown I am not under them, but I don't use my freedom to rebel against the truths they taught me, because now I know the same truth in my own heart. Likewise, freedom in God's Messiah cannot mean opposition to the torah of God. To love as God loves is to fulfil the torah, and go far beyond it.
Am I on the right track, dears? Let's be guided by God who gives us everything we have.[/QUOTE]
If someone believes that we don't have the freedom to do what the Torah reveals to be sin, then it is contradictory for them to deny that we are under the Torah. To fulfill the Torah means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo). So Jesus fulfilled the Torah by spending his ministry teaching how to correctly obey it as it should by by word and by example. In Titus 2:14, Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), or in other words, the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from doing the things that God has revealed to be sin through the cross.
Which means (again!) that nobody can follow the laws you keep saying we all should.
You claim these 613 laws are written on our hearts and yet nobody can follow them.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatian 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).
In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blesses because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, states, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to him, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah.
In Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they ought to be doing the same works that he did, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, so both Abraham and Moses spread the Gospel of the Kingdom by turning people from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah. In regard to Deuteronomy 5:2-3, if God made the New Covenant with us that He didn't make with those at Horeb, and it contains at least some of the same laws as the covenant that God made at Horeb, then the fact that God made a covenant with them at Horeb that he did not make with their forefathers does not mean that their forefathers did not follow the same laws. For example, in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery, it was a sin under the Mosaic Covenant, it is a sin under the New Covenant, and it will always be a sin to do that.
The Law of God is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness are our master (Romans 7:12), while it is the law of sin where sin was our master, so that is the law that Romans 6:14 is referring to us as not being under. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin.
Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, so Romans 7:4 should not be interpreted in a way that contradicts Romans 6:15-7:3. It would not make sense to think that we need to die to God's word in order to be unified with God's word made flesh, but rather God's word is His instructions for how to be unified with God's word made flesh. Likewise, it would be absurd to think that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him, but rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from bearing fruit for God, namely the law of sin.
The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that it does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). In other words, the New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal laws for how to act in accordance with His eternal character traits, such as with the fact that God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160).
You should also stop making up your own definitions for words. It's dishonest.
For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second.
The Torah does not instruct us to go around stoning people, but rathe it instructs for the people accused to be brought before a judge to do a thorough investigation, that the witnesses are to throw the first stones, that no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, that the penalty is give to the witnesses instead if they are false, and that a ransom is permitted except for the case of murder.
Moreover, Jesus gave himself to pay for the penalty of our sins, so the Torah still has the same penalty, but Jesus has paid it in our place, and to insist that we should enforce a penalty that he has already paid would be to deny what he accomplished through the cross.
The issue of whether or not followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is independent of what I am personally doing. Even if I were doing nothing that the Torah instructs, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that we shouldn't follow what God has commanded in accordance with Christ's example.
Refusing to submit to the Torah is the way to deny that Jesus is the Messiah. Or in other words, obeying God's word is the way to believe in God's word made flesh while refusing to obey God's word is the way to deny that Jesus is God's word made flesh. It is contradictory to think that we should believe in God, but not in His word, and the Torah is God's word.
If I don't do something that is a crime under Borneo law, but I am a Canadian in Canada, am I then under Borneo law? No. Your argument fails.
The requirement of the law is still there, regardless of whether or not there is a temple. Better start building one. The first one was made out of tents. Shouldn't be too hard.
The phrase "Torah and the Prophets" has a specific meaning, so there is no room for him to be using a word other than "Torah' or its equivalent in whatever language he was speaking in. Jesus didn't speak any English words, if you want to call me a liar for quoting what he said in English, then you're being ridiculous.
You keep accusing me of what you are guilty of doing.
There can be legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law, for example, not even Jesus followed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth, but that is not picking and choosing which laws we are to follow.
In Jeremiah 31:33, it directly uses the Hebrew word "Torah" in regard to what it put in our minds and written on our hearts, so those who want nothing to do with obeying the Torah want nothing to do with being under the New Covenant..
I am not saying that we should follow the laws in regard to temple practice when there is no temple in which to practice them. We should follow the laws that we are able to follow.
I did not make up any definitions of words, so you are again a false accuser. In Hebrews 8:6-13, it does not say that the fault that God found was with His law, but rather it says that He found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant. So the solution to the problem was not for God to do away with the Torah, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), which is so that this time we will obey it.
The God of Israel has given instructions for how to know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him in accordance with living as citizens of His Kingdom, and for how to refrain from sin by contrast, so those who want to do those things will voluntarily choose to follow them even if they have no obligation to do them while not who do not want to do those things will argue against following His instructions for how to do them.
And the fact that he fulfilled that part of the Torah also applies to all the rigid rules and regulations.
We are not to follow the Torah, we are to follow what Jesus taught us..... and that aligns with the principles commanded in the Torah.
We do not need to look back at the Torah to get our guidlines for living.... Jesus gave us those.
If you say that we need to follow the Torah, then you yourself are nullifying what Jesus did for us.... He fulfilled the law, releasing us from the rigidity and penalties involved.... as you pointed out.
The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that can't currently be followed. Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that those laws have gone anywhere. Again, if the Israelites were required to obey the laws in regard to temple practice before they could return from exile, then they would have never returned from exile. In 2 Chronicles 30:15-20, Hezekiah prayed for Gd to pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God even though they were not acting according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness and God heard him and healed the people.
Even when the Law was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to obey all of them, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only to govern the conduct of the King, the High priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have living in the land, those who have tzaraat, and those who are strangers living among them while other laws were given to everyone. A large portion of the Mosaic Law was given to govern the conduct of the Leviticus, which the other Israelites were not permitted to follow, so while there can be illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law, there can also be legitimate reasons.