Predestination is misunderstood...

[Everlasting-Grace]

"yes it is" what?

He who has the son has life

As a reminder, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.

So I am NOT arguing the "Calvinist" viewpoint.

You said we had the son before faith

that is a calvinist viewpoint

Okay. But I was NOT arguing such a point (or, against such ^ ), NO.





My point was simply to POINT OUT TO THOSE READING this thread (you as well), the actual verses which prove your basic point (Eph2:5 [v.1 doesn't] = Col2:13 [not v.12]... <--the verses in the brackets being the ones you had supplied.)

I'm simply pointing out the verses, instead, that DO speak to what your point had basically been. To which, I AGREE.

ok, sorry, I misunderstood you.. A lot of that going arLund sadly..

 

[John146]

and are being sanctified this very moment and will continue until we die.

Can you provide scripture for your statements? Thanks! Btw, I am sanctified this very moment because I am in Christ.

 

[Dino246]

no it doesn't because all the believers who died before the cross, Christ went down to paradise and resurrected them in him.

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[Dino246]

This was not Samuel this was demon pretending to be Samuel summoned by a witch.

No, it was actually Samuel. NOTHING in the text suggests it was anything other than Samuel, and there is no logical fallacy employed in G_a's post.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"yes it is" what?

He who has the son has life

Agreed.

I asked for clarification because I thought perhaps your "yes it is" referred to my "that is NOT PRIOR TO believing on Him" [you: "yes it is"]

lol




Okay, now I understand your response there.

You said we had the son before faith

that is a calvinist viewpoint

NOPE, I did not say that.

Perhaps read my post again??



I said, what is stated in Eph2:5 and Col1:13 are only applicable TO A BELIEVER ("[ye are] HAVING BEEN [perfect participle] SAVED"--i.e. the SAVED person, not the UNSAVED person)

ok, sorry, I misunderstood you.. A lot of that going arLund sadly..

Okay, understandable.

I hope these latest posts served to clarify, so that the "misunderstanding" is cleared up (for all reading, also)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Where is that in Scripture?

And the tomb stones broke open and the bodies of many who had fallen to sleep where raised to life.

Please don't reject this, my super duper obedient brother. 😂

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thunderrr-mental said:
no it doesn't because all the believers who died before the cross, Christ went down to paradise and resurrected them in him.

Where is that in Scripture?

EDIT: nevermind... I MIS-read the quote by T-m (I focused on the BOLDED/UNDERLINED portion, missing his point)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

No, it was actually Samuel. NOTHING in the text suggests it was anything other than Samuel, and there is no logical fallacy employed in G_a's post.

Am I suppose to believe a witch raised the dead. 🤔

I can show you scripture where demons deceived people and made people believe they where someone else and they actually fell for it.

Then you can use that with comparison with this, if your willing to be my friend that is.

They actually can actually appear as your best friend and you would not know,

But people with an untrained eye would not know even the elect can be be deceived in this case
But not Jesus 😉

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to add to my previous post]

Just to note (what my orig. post was concerning), I disagree that Jesus "WENT DOWN" (at His death) "to preach to the spirits in prison," as some suggest that 1 Peter 3:18-20 is saying.



[I mis-read his post, apologies!]


I believe Jesus (His spirit) went immediately to the Father ("into thy hands I commend / commit my spirit"... so UP );
His body went to the grave [/being what died].

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

EDIT: nevermind... I MIS-read the quote by T-m (I focused on the BOLDED/UNDERLINED portion, missing his point)

So what's your point.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Are you both saying That Jesus never went down to paradise and resurrected people who where sleeping 🤔

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[cleaning up the formatting of my Post #1125]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"yes it is" what?

Everlasting-Grace said:
He who has the son has life

Agreed.

I asked for clarification because I thought perhaps your "yes it is" referred to my "that is NOT PRIOR TO believing on Him" [you: "yes it is"]

lol




Okay, now I understand your response there (which wasn't that ^ ).

You said we had the son before faith

that is a calvinist viewpoint

NOPE, I did not say that.

Perhaps read my post again??



I said, what is stated in Eph2:5 and Col1:13 are only applicable TO A BELIEVER ("[ye are] HAVING BEEN [perfect participle] SAVED"--i.e. the SAVED person, not the UNSAVED person)


And I said it is NOT BEFORE "believing"

ok, sorry, I misunderstood you.. A lot of that going arLund sadly..

Okay, understandable.

I hope these latest posts served to clarify, so that the "misunderstanding" is cleared up (for all reading, also)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So what's your point.

See my Post #1129 - https://christianchat.com/threads/predestination-is-misunderstood.214056/post-5249501

Hope that helps clarify somewhat.




Again, my apologies for mis-reading your quoted words.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

See my Post #1129 - https://christianchat.com/threads/predestination-is-misunderstood.214056/post-5249501

Hope that helps clarify somewhat.




Again, my apologies for mis-reading your quoted words.

np, but i hope your not confusing paradise with heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Thunderrr-mental , my post was intending to focus on where Jesus went upon His death.


[His spirit, to the Father; His body, to the grave.... basically that was my general point ]





Hopefully you are not confusing the "spirits in prison" (1Pet3:18-20) as referring to "believers"... as some suggest.

[??? I don't know what you believe about the 1Pet3:18-20 passage... ; But again, I did mis-read your post, and apologize. ]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are you both saying That Jesus never went down to paradise and resurrected people who where sleeping

1. Jesus never went "down" to Paradise, since Paradise in in Heaven.
2. Jesus went down to Sheol/Hades which is in "the heart of the earth" or "the lower parts of the earth". One could say near the core of the earth.
3. He was in Hades for three days and three nights proclaiming His victory on the cross.
4. The souls and spirits in Hades are not really sleeping (as we know from Christ Himself).
5. On the day He was resurrected, Christ took all the OT saints in Hades (the righteous dead) to Heaven (Paradise is in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven).
6. Those souls and spirits are presently in Heaven, and will eventually receive immortal glorified bodies at the Resurrection/Rapture (a future event).

 

[Magenta]

I see them as related. Free will is a condition that allows for choices.
If someone has more stringent definitions I'm not opposed to them.

Pardon my tardy reply, please, as I had a nap and am now eating dinner ..
Free will: is the natural man free to choose God, or is his will constrained by his nature,
which is in opposition to God, being His enemy and hostile in his mind toward Him?

 

[Nehemiah6]

is the natural man free to choose God, or is his will constrained by his nature, which is in opposition to God, being His enemy and hostile in his mind toward Him?

That is the whole point of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. The natural man is presented with the Gospel while the Holy Spirt convicts and convinces him. So the natural man can -- and does -- respond to the Gospel. See Acts 2. Those who make this a big issue generally ignore the POWER of the Gospel (Romans 1:16). So they are actually thinking like natural men.

 

[Magenta]

That is the whole point of the preaching of the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. The natural man is presented with the Gospel while the Holy Spirt convicts and convinces him. So the natural man can -- and does -- respond to the Gospel. See Acts 2. Those who make this a big issue generally ignore the POWER of the Gospel (Romans 1:16). So they are actually thinking like natural men.

As if dead people can choose life without the power of God making them alive first. Got it.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

^ @Thunderrr-mental , my post was intending to focus on where Jesus went upon His death.


[His spirit, to the Father; His body, to the grave.... basically that was my general point ]





Hopefully you are not confusing the "spirits in prison" (1Pet3:18-20) as referring to "believers"... as some suggest.

[??? I don't know what you believe about the 1Pet3:18-20 passage... ; But again, I did mis-read your post, and apologize. ]

. I think your stating the thief on the cross went straight to heaven,

Theres a clear distinction between paradise and heaven