Shabbat (Intent-- not Timing)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
#61
Dec 13, 2023
1,660
308
83
#61
1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

If Christ is in us we are keeping His commandments John 14:15-18 if we are hostile to God's law it really is not a good sign. Rom 8:7-8 1 John 2:4. Jesus in us produces faith and love and we would want to do everything He asks and live by His every Word.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#62
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
#62
Cameron143 said:
Christ came to free us from ritual, and to move on in relationship.
Click to expand...
Nowhere is that stated in the Bible, but just the opposite. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus came to free us from any of God's laws, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus cam to accomplish through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).

You don't understand this and haven't experienced it. That's why the law is more important to you than Christ. I hope one day you will come to know the preeminence of Christ and to know Him. I hope you will at least prayerfully consider what I have shared.
Grace and peace.
Click to expand...
It is not my position that the law is more important to me than Christ. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father, so the position that we should follow what the Father has taught is not elevating His law above Christ, but rather that is the way to love him. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Mosaic Law is to know Christ.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#63
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#63
Soyeong said:
Nowhere is that stated in the Bible, but just the opposite. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus came to free us from any of God's laws, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus cam to accomplish through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).


It is not my position that the law is more important to me than Christ. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father, so the position that we should follow what the Father has taught is not elevating His law above Christ, but rather that is the way to love him. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Mosaic Law is to know Christ.
Click to expand...
Name 1 law you have ever kept?
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#64
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
#64
Cameron143 said:
Name 1 law you have ever kept?
Click to expand...
Deuteronomy 22:6 “If you come across a bird's nest in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#65
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#65
Soyeong said:
Deuteronomy 22:6 “If you come across a bird's nest in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young.
Click to expand...
How do you know you obeyed?
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#68
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
#68
TMS said:
Let's be clear....
The shadow laws were introduced because of sin. The laws that were nailed to the cross were the laws that Jesus fulfilled or is fulfilling.
We don't need an Earthly priest because Jesus is our priest.
The better system is the heavenly system and Jesus is both the lamb and high priest.

How is the Sabbath a shadow law if it was made holy before sin. A gift to mankind before sin. Made for man before sin.

God make it holy and we needed to keep it holy.
Click to expand...
There is a big difference between these two statements:

1) You shall not commit murder

2) This person has been charged with committing murder.

The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was nailed to someone's cross in order to announce why they were being executed. Likewise, in Matthew 27:37, they nailed the charge that was against Christ to his cross. So there were no laws nailed to the cross, but rather what was nailed to his cross was the list of sins that we have committed so that he died in our place to pay the penalty of our sins. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, so after Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#69
Oct 11, 2023
869
106
43
#69
Cameron143 said:
So, because of your outward performance?
Click to expand...
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. If obedience to God's law were about having an outward performance, then God would not have disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#70
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#70
Soyeong said:
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. If obedience to God's law were about having an outward performance, then God would not have disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).
Click to expand...
I'll take that as a yes. So, what is the spiritual or heart aspect of the law you quoted?
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#71
Sep 2, 2020
14,661
5,908
113
#71
Soyeong said:
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. If obedience to God's law were about having an outward performance, then God would not have disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).
Click to expand...
right the condition of thier heart is what shaped the law itself

“And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s why the law is like it is because of transgression in n mens minds and hearts

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It says what it says because of the people it was given to

“And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law is coming from his foreknowledge of the people it’s given to

It reads like it does because of the condition of thier hearts

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is different it doesn’t begin condemning the people that will not obey on the future so it reads from the opposite perspective to Gods beloved children who have thier sins atoned for and remitted by the lord himself they are “ born again “ of Gods promises for his children regarding his eternal kingdom the doctrine itself is different because it’s being spoken to the new person and not the old rebellious heart but the heart that was softened by Christs suffering on thier behalf fornthier transgressions to save them

to break the hard hearts we were given the most touching and important sacrifice ever known or declared by mankind He loves us enough to suffer and die to save us from our own sins against him

this should change hearts of those who believe and then they need the doctrine that comes with it teaching then of the father that loves them the spirit within them and the son who died and rose for them

the things the lord taught when he was here and said to believe and we’ll be saved but the law doesn’t teach any of those things it doesn’t mention Jesus name his sacrifice his resurrection the father in heaven or son made flesh nor the spirit within us it doesn’t teach the same things Jesus taught no mercy for sinners v forgivness for sinners

condemnation for sinners v repentance and salvation for sinners

death v life
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#72
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
#72
TMS said:
Col 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ......17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Click to expand...
why did you omit two verses?
:p


TMS said:
The effects of sin are not shadow laws, and the creation that testify to God's greatness are not shadow laws.
Click to expand...
in Hebrews 8 the temple and the ark of the testimony are also called shadows, and these things are testimonies of Christ. in the Revelation of Christ we see also that there is no temple in the perfect city which comes down from heaven, because the LORD, the Lamb is its temple.

so is the ark which was seen in heaven a testimony of Christ also? or is Christ a testimony of it? clearly it, even being in heaven, is a shadow of the true ark, the Holy Lamb of God.

therefore also the Sabbath is a shadow, not the substance, as the verse you omitted explicity states.
 
stilllearning

stilllearning

Well-known member
#73
Oct 4, 2021
598
307
63
#73
Cameron143 said:
Name 1 law you have ever kept?
Click to expand...
Ironically enough when I was in the world the sabbath was the only law I kept as I sure took Saturdays off.........LOL This may be the only law that others in the world do keep religiously taking Saturday off at the end of work week....LOL
 
S

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
#74
Dec 13, 2023
1,660
308
83
#74
posthuman said:
why did you omit two verses?
:p




in Hebrews 8 the temple and the ark of the testimony are also called shadows, and these things are testimonies of Christ. in the Revelation of Christ we see also that there is no temple in the perfect city which comes down from heaven, because the LORD, the Lamb is its temple.

so is the ark which was seen in heaven a testimony of Christ also? or is Christ a testimony of it? clearly it, even being in heaven, is a shadow of the true ark, the Holy Lamb of God.

therefore also the Sabbath is a shadow, not the substance, as the verse you omitted explicity states.
Click to expand...
There is no scripture that says the ark of the covenant is Jesus, just like there is no scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath.

The earthy temple was a copy of the temple in Heaven Heb 8:1-5 and the ark of the covenant is in heaven

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

The earthy temple was a miniature of the heavenly Temple as it always taught the plan of salvation, and every piece of furniture has meaning and represents our salvation in Christ.

No government can exists without laws and God's kingdom is no different. Lucifer was a covering cherub, meaning He was one of the cherubs who covered God's law Eze 28:14- so God's law exists in heaven and we know that because where there is no law, there is no sin Romans 4:15 and the devil sinned in heaven which is why he was separated from God. 1 John 3:8

It's just not logical that we can live in disobedience to God's law and have a different outcome than everyone else who sinned in scripture which separated them from God. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21

In order to have a fair Judgement we need to know what we are being judged by. God did not leave it up to man to write His holy law that defines sin Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 God wrote and spoke His commandments and was written by the finger of God Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 no greater Authority than God. Which is why no man including Paul has the authority to remove one jot or tittle of God's holy law that sits in His heavenly kingdom and what man will be judged by breaking one commandment we break them all. James 2:10-12 as it sits under His mercy seat where justice and mercy come together.

So Paul was very careful when he wrote Col 2:14-17 to be sure we know it's the annual sabbath(s) feast days, also called holy days that have to do with food and drink that were handwritten ordinance by Moses placed outside the ark of the covenant as a witness against (contrary) which is the context of this scripture and Paul shows us what it points to Heb 10:1-22.

If one looked at the context and didn't want to add their will to His word would easily see this is not referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment that is holy and blessed by God and finger written by God and is the one commandment that reveals our Creator and His Authority over all heaven and earth that will never change.

Paul does not have the authority to reverse God's blessing, no man does Num 23:20 and why Paul was a servant to God and kept His holy things and kept the Sabbath decades after the cross Acts 13:42-44 Acts 18:4 just like Jesus indicated His Sabbath would be kept decades after the Cross Mat 24:20 and would be kept to worship Jesus for eternity Isa 66:23
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#75
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#75
stilllearning said:
Ironically enough when I was in the world the sabbath was the only law I kept as I sure took Saturdays off.........LOL This may be the only law that others in the world do keep religiously taking Saturday off at the end of work week....LOL
Click to expand...
The point I was trying to drive home is that no one keeps the law. Even in not working on the Sabbath, you weren't keeping the Sabbath. I asked the poster what commandment he kept. He gave me an obtuse reference to a law concerning birds and eggs. When I asked how he knew he kept it he said because of his physical performance. At the same time he said that it was a spiritual matter or matter of the heart. When I asked what was the spiritual or heart aspect of the law...crickets. How can someone say they have kept a commandment without even understanding the heart issue in question?
I know you were reinforcing my argument and doing so lightheartedly, but the recent influx of self deceived lawyers undermines grace and makes a mockery of the cross.
 
S

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
#76
Dec 13, 2023
1,660
308
83
#76
Only God knows what we do and don't do Ecc 12:13-14 , and no one can keep His law unless He lives in us. John 14:15-18. Jesus wouldn't give us commandments without giving us the power to be able to keep them. He says we can keep the law otherwise His command to go and sin no more would be in vain. Scripture shows there is a people who overcome and obey Him Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
 
stilllearning

stilllearning

Well-known member
#77
Oct 4, 2021
598
307
63
#77
Cameron143 said:
The point I was trying to drive home is that no one keeps the law. Even in not working on the Sabbath, you weren't keeping the Sabbath. I asked the poster what commandment he kept. He gave me an obtuse reference to a law concerning birds and eggs. When I asked how he knew he kept it he said because of his physical performance. At the same time he said that it was a spiritual matter or matter of the heart. When I asked what was the spiritual or heart aspect of the law...crickets. How can someone say they have kept a commandment without even understanding the heart issue in question?
I know you were reinforcing my argument and doing so lightheartedly, but the recent influx of self deceived lawyers undermines grace and makes a mockery of the cross.
Click to expand...
I agree and I understand my brother :) I reckon my thing is and this is not you by any chance as honestly I like the way you hold yourself on these boards you speak respectful to all and I like that I find that very Godly.

My thing is and not towards you at all. My patience is not as commendable as yours....LOL One of my biggest pet peeves is intellectual dishonesty, disingenuousness, self righteousness.

To which after reading constant posting's of the sabbath making new threads while others are already in play. I believe it is virtue signaling. Or as Christ put it sounding of the trumpet, making long one's tassels.

We are told that whatever is in a man's heart will come out of his mouth. I find by this measure that some of this sabbath drum beating is just that a one trick pony by some pushing their own self righteousness.

If you love me you will keep my commandments is a statement of fact. It is nonvoluntary by that I mean if you are a apple tree you will bear apples you have no choice as you are an apple tree. A good fountain brings forth good water. These are statements of fact as they can only do so because they are so.

However, what I am reading is they have taken if you love me you will keep my commandments, a statement of fact and a natural occurrence. Reversed it so that the intention of what they are saying is seen, if you keep my commandments you love me. That is self justification, self righteousness and clearly the intent by some in this debate.

So my flesh has got the better of me and I have taken to jest and mockery. However, your attitude of engagement respectfully is a admonishment to me a reminder that nothing good comes from operating in my flesh. So thanks and you have a most pleasant day my friend :)
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#78
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#78
stilllearning said:
I agree and I understand my brother :) I reckon my thing is and this is not you by any chance as honestly I like the way you hold yourself on these boards you speak respectful to all and I like that I find that very Godly.

My thing is and not towards you at all. My patience is not as commendable as yours....LOL One of my biggest pet peeves is intellectual dishonesty, disingenuousness, self righteousness.

To which after reading constant posting's of the sabbath making new threads while others are already in play. I believe it is virtue signaling. Or as Christ put it sounding of the trumpet, making long one's tassels.

We are told that whatever is in a man's heart will come out of his mouth. I find by this measure that some of this sabbath drum beating is just that a one trick pony by some pushing their own self righteousness.

If you love me you will keep my commandments is a statement of fact. It is nonvoluntary by that I mean if you are a apple tree you will bear apples you have no choice as you are an apple tree. A good fountain brings forth good water. These are statements of fact as they can only do so because they are so.

However, what I am reading is they have taken if you love me you will keep my commandments, a statement of fact and a natural occurrence. Reversed it so that the intention of what they are saying is seen, if you keep my commandments you love me. That is self justification, self righteousness and clearly the intent by some in this debate.

So my flesh has got the better of me and I have taken to jest and mockery. However, your attitude of engagement respectfully is a admonishment to me a reminder that nothing good comes from operating in my flesh. So thanks and you have a most pleasant day my friend :)
Click to expand...
All good stuff. My patience comes from remembering I was at one time the same way. And the nature of self deception is you don't know what you don't know.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#79
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
#79
You must log in or register to reply here.