Shabbat (Intent-- not Timing)

[TMS]

i didn't say Jesus is a gilded box or a repeated temporal period of ritual inaction.

i said those things are symbols representing Him - He is The Substance, they are shadows.

He is the true ark, the true temple, the true shepherd, the true potter, the true light, the true rest.

because Jesus is the true light, that does not mean Jesus replaced the light. The shadow laws were replaced by Jesus but the Sabbath was part of creation, it was not a shadow law. It was made before sin and made holy before sin. we didn't need saving from death and sin until after Adam and Eve sinned.

It comes down to the same point... What was and what wasn't part of the ordinances nailed to the cross?. Understanding the that the laws are not all the same. laws of nature, civil laws, health laws, cerimonial laws, and moral laws. Jesus is everything good.

 

[TMS]

I'm not talking about shadow laws. I'm talking about the symbolism of creation and in the lives and circumstances and things God records in the Bible. Simply because God doesn't tell us until after sin what He has done in creation doesn't mean the symbolism wasn't there.
An example, God spoke and brought things into existence. Today God uses His word to create believers...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This was always true and pictured for us in creation, but only fully revealed in the NT. But it was established in creation.
If we were given revelation, we would understand that everything God created is a revelation of Him. And that's what is revealed in Romans 1-20...the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

you claim that the sabbath was nailed to the cross. therefore you claim that the sabbath was a shadow law, and was no longer needed after the cross. You apply Col 2 to the weekly sabbath..
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But the weekly sabbath was made holy before sin, and the cerimonial sabbaths, (yearly sabbaths) were introduced latter because of sin and point directly to salvation.
for example....
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

The Feast of Trumpets and The Day of Atonement are both simbolic or shadow laws pointing to Jesus. The weekly sabbath is not the same and was made holy before sin.

 

[Soyeong]

I'll take that as a yes. So, what is the spiritual or heart aspect of the law you quoted?

The Bible contains a number of commands where there is no explanation given for why God command them, which invite us to ponder what God is teaching us about how to love aspects of His nature through them. Furthermore, we have the greatest opportunity to have faith in God to correctly guide us in how to live when we still obey His commands even when we don't understand why He commanded them.

The point I was trying to drive home is that no one keeps the law.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the world of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing. Do you affirm or deny the truth of these verses?

Even in not working on the Sabbath, you weren't keeping the Sabbath. I asked the poster what commandment he kept. He gave me an obtuse reference to a law concerning birds and eggs. When I asked how he knew he kept it he said because of his physical performance. At the same time he said that it was a spiritual matter or matter of the heart. When I asked what was the spiritual or heart aspect of the law...crickets. How can someone say they have kept a commandment without even understanding the heart issue in question?

I do have a sometime have extra time in the morning to respond to posts before I leave for work, but that ends abruptly when I need to leave for work. It is one of the two commands that promises the reward “that it should be good for you, and you should lengthen your days”. I did not say that it was because of my physical performance. The Bible repeatedly states that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.

I know you were reinforcing my argument and doing so lightheartedly, but the recent influx of self deceived lawyers undermines grace and makes a mockery of the cross.

Please see post #100 in regard to grace. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning the the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to make a mockery of the cross.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 14:6, Jesus is the embodiment of that truth, so the way to avoid being deceived is by holding on to the truth.

 

[Cameron143]

you claim that the sabbath was nailed to the cross. therefore you claim that the sabbath was a shadow law, and was no longer needed after the cross. You apply Col 2 to the weekly sabbath..
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But the weekly sabbath was made holy before sin, and the cerimonial sabbaths, (yearly sabbaths) were introduced latter because of sin and point directly to salvation.
for example....
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

The Feast of Trumpets and The Day of Atonement are both simbolic or shadow laws pointing to Jesus. The weekly sabbath is not the same and was made holy before sin.

I'm saying the Sabbath was a picture of rest. God rested from His work of creation because He was finished. Christ finished His work in the new creation and sat down at the right hand of the Father. We can rest in the finished work of Christ.
The rest pictured in creation always pointed to the rest we are to take in Christ. Just as God provided physical rest for man, He also provided a spiritual rest in Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible contains a number of commands where there is no explanation given for why God command them, which invite us to ponder what God is teaching us about how to love aspects of His nature through them. Furthermore, we have the greatest opportunity to have faith in God to correctly guide us in how to live when we still obey His commands even when we don't understand why He commanded them.



In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the world of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing. Do you affirm or deny the truth of these verses?


I do have a sometime have extra time in the morning to respond to posts before I leave for work, but that ends abruptly when I need to leave for work. It is one of the two commands that promises the reward “that it should be good for you, and you should lengthen your days”. I did not say that it was because of my physical performance. The Bible repeatedly states that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments.


Please see post #100 in regard to grace. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning the the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to make a mockery of the cross.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 14:6, Jesus is the embodiment of that truth, so the way to avoid being deceived is by holding on to the truth.

So you say that commands must be obeyed both outwardly and inwardly. Then you say you have kept a certain command. Then when I ask what heart issue the command demands and you say you don't know. I think it's a fair question to ask how do you know you have actually kept the commandment, because by your own admission you don't even know what the commandment requires of you.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Rest- means there is no unrest. And unrest means there’s rebellion. In Christ rests there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments, just peace. The Sabbath is a commandment of God. Jesus doesn’t give Himself a commandment - its for us to keep and the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment. Luke 23:56

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

 

[Gideon300]

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works as done to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for any number of other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that connect God's grace with God's law. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and and Jesus. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of our obedience to the Mosaic Law, doing good works in obedience to it is nevertheless a central part of the gift of our salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation.

What Paul said about grace and law in Galatians should be understood in a way that is in agreement with these verses rather than a way that is contrary to them. For example, it would be absurd to interpret those verses as God being gracious to people by teaching the how to fall from grace.

You still do not get it. I agree with 99% of what you say. But you still give the law a place that no longer applies in the New Covenant.

 

[TMS]

I'm saying the Sabbath was a picture of rest. God rested from His work of creation because He was finished. Christ finished His work in the new creation and sat down at the right hand of the Father. We can rest in the finished work of Christ.
The rest pictured in creation always pointed to the rest we are to take in Christ. Just as God provided physical rest for man, He also provided a spiritual rest in Christ.

So why don't you obey His command. Why don't you keep the sabbath holy. It is a time for physical, Spiritual and mental rest. I obey because Jesus said to keep it. It has been a wonderful experience, a delight. I want to share it with others but many of you say it is a burden or a law that no longer exisits. We can worship all day every day and rest everyday in Jesus but the commandment is specific.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 

[TMS]

I'm saying the Sabbath was a picture of rest. God rested from His work of creation because He was finished. Christ finished His work in the new creation and sat down at the right hand of the Father. We can rest in the finished work of Christ.

Should we rest in what Jesus did, as an excuss to continue to sin. God forbid. NO.
We, as sinners, find rest in Jesus and for me that includes following Him, that includes Surrender to Him, and obedience to Him. When i practice sin i feel guilt. Guilt is not rest. I can not have rest with Jesus and continue in sin.

The sabbath is a commandment that we are asked to follow. Sin is the transgression of the law. i can't knowingly transgress God's law and have rest at the same time.

 

[Soyeong]

You still do not get it. I agree with 99% of what you say. But you still give the law a place that no longer applies in the New Covenant.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing in on our hearts.

 

[Cameron143]

So why don't you obey His command. Why don't you keep the sabbath holy. It is a time for physical, Spiritual and mental rest. I obey because Jesus said to keep it. It has been a wonderful experience, a delight. I want to share it with others but many of you say it is a burden or a law that no longer exisits. We can worship all day every day and rest everyday in Jesus but the commandment is specific.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jesus was under the old covenant. He came to fulfill the law. Keeping the Sabbath was part of that. Also, those He preached to were also under the old covenant. Of course He told them to keep the law. There was no new covenant yet.
As for what you experience, that's awesome. But it isn't awesome because it's the 7th day. It's awesome because you have found peace with God through Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Should we rest in what Jesus did, as an excuss to continue to sin. God forbid. NO.
We, as sinners, find rest in Jesus and for me that includes following Him, that includes Surrender to Him, and obedience to Him. When i practice sin i feel guilt. Guilt is not rest. I can not have rest with Jesus and continue in sin.

The sabbath is a commandment that we are asked to follow. Sin is the transgression of the law. i can't knowingly transgress God's law and have rest at the same time.

Your conscience requires you to keep the 7th day Sabbath. So keep it. Anything not of faith is sin. My conscience allows me to do otherwise, based on the same word of God. I am keeping the Sabbath when I worship on the Lord's day. And I'm keeping it all week as I rest each day in Him.
What makes the Sabbath worth keeping isn't the commandment...it's the reality that we are in Christ and have peace with and joy in God.

 

[Soyeong]

So you say that commands must be obeyed both outwardly and inwardly. Then you say you have kept a certain command. Then when I ask what heart issue the command demands and you say you don't know. I think it's a fair question to ask how do you know you have actually kept the commandment, because by your own admission you don't even know what the commandment requires of you.

Again, the heart issue is love for God. The command says not to take the mother with the young, so knowing that I have actually kept the command is fairly straightforward. We are not required to know why God commanded His children to do something in order to be able to do what He has commanded. I didn't say that I don't know what the command requires of me, but rather it requires not to take the mother with the young.

 

[posthuman]

because Jesus is the true light, that does not mean Jesus replaced the light. The shadow laws were replaced by Jesus but the Sabbath was part of creation, it was not a shadow law. It was made before sin and made holy before sin. we didn't need saving from death and sin until after Adam and Eve sinned.

It comes down to the same point... What was and what wasn't part of the ordinances nailed to the cross?. Understanding the that the laws are not all the same. laws of nature, civil laws, health laws, cerimonial laws, and moral laws. Jesus is everything good.

when did Satan fall?

 

[posthuman]

Again, the heart issue is love for God. The command says not to take the mother with the young, so knowing that I have actually kept the command is fairly straightforward. We are not required to know why God commanded His children to do something in order to be able to do what He has commanded. I didn't say that I don't know what the command requires of me, but rather it requires not to take the mother with the young.

then do not take the testimony of Christ out of the scripture, from which all truth and righteousness proceeds, for the sake of the physical keeping of a commandment.

without the spirit what uses is a body? it is dead, whether it is handsome or ugly.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus is my Sabbath rest.

Christians have entered into a permanent Sabbath rest, a "sabbatismos" rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:9) in contrast with Israel keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law. (Exodus 31:16-17; 35:1-3; Deuteronomy 5:15)

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Strong's Concordance

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest​

Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest (keeping) for the people of God;

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God - God placed it in the same unit as thou shalt not worship other gods and thou shalt not murder- Jesus taught in His own Word when we choose to keep our rules/traditions over obeying the commandments of God our hearts are far from Him Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13- the opposite of the New Covenant- God's law written in our hearts and minds.

God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, man says forget and do what we want instead. Our faith should be in God and live by His every Word. Mat 4:4

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Everyone should take note that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used nowhere else in the Bible. I often hear SDA's suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=35458

Although for centuries the Jews had found their physical rest in a day, the New Covenant takes the focus off the shadows of the Old Testament signs and rituals and reveals their spiritual substance -- the fulfillment/reality—in the person of Jesus Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Christians find complete "sabbatismos" rest in Jesus Christ and not in law keeping.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

In God’s rest there is no rebellion to God or His commandments. That’s called unrest.

In Christ we we also cease from our works just as God did
Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
When did God cease from His works? The seventh day

Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works
We are made in the image of God to follow Him, not to do our own thing.

It God’s rest we keep His commandments , including the Sabbath commandment God said Remember- which means we shouldn’t forget.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

We should depend on God’s righteousness. Psa 119:172 not our own, as we are to be servants of Christ

God personally wrote and spoke the Sabbath commandment and blessed it and made it holy. Only God can reverse His blessing. Num 23:20 I challenge anyone to find one thus saith the Lord that we can now profane the Sabbath commandment or He reversed His blessing of the Sabbath.

God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Man says we can forget and do what we want instead. Jesus said to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat 4:4 where we should all place our faith. We have free will like just the the Israelites did who profaned the Sabbath Eze 20:21 Eze 20:13 and we are told not to follow their path of disobedience Heb 4:11

 

[posthuman]

you know how Hebrews makes the argument that the priesthood of the Law had to keep making the same sacrifices over and over, showing that it could never actually take away sin?
but Christ died once for all?

something eats at me every saturday - if i truly had rest, why do i have to do this again next week?