Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

Yes. No matter how far down you dig it’s ALWAYS God’s Work, done through the faith He gifted us.

How does God's WORK work?

What does God do to get us able to believe?

grace and peace ...............

 

[Nehemiah6]

What does God do to get us able to believe?

The answer is right there in Scripture for those who want it.
1. God has given mankind the Gospel.
2. The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and convince sinners.
3. All men are COMMANDED to obey the Gospel.
4. But God will compel no one to be saved.
5. And God will elect no one to be saved either.
6. Salvation is offered to all mankind, but all must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Genez]

I do not think grace is what changes you. I believe that it is the death and resurrection of Christ along with the indwelling of the Spirit which works a miracle, causing you to believe. However, this is given to God's elect by grace “it is undeserved”.

How is our belief "caused?"

I do believe something was caused by God to enable our soul to believe.

But, if we remain unable to differentiate between the functions of our soul and our flesh? Some will attribute our belief to a mysterious process only known to God.

In that case? God's sovereignty gets the blame for forcing us to believe... That He makes it irresistible.

grace and peace .........

 

[PaulThomson]

Then why speak in such a condescendingly manner to a fellow brother in Christ?
That's why we all need a thorn to buffet us-keeping us humble since pride comes in many forms and manifestations-and by the way-there is no such thing as a foolish question.
J.

There is no such thing as a foolish coherent question.
Is the orange louder than the speed of light? would be a foolish question. It confuses categories. Who created the uncaused Cause? would be another.
I critiqued your post, not you. I think you may be projecting.

 

[PaulThomson]

If you pick 1, you need to explain why you are smarter to have understood the Gospel, or how you are morally superior BEFORE conversion than those that reject Him.

That would be to compare ourselves among ourselves which is foolish.

2 Cor. 10:12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.

 

[PaulThomson]

How is our belief "caused?"

I do believe something was caused by God to enable our soul to believe.

God gave us, as made in His image, faculties of hearing, intellect, conscience, discrimination, faith. he does not need to add a new faculty to us for us to believe the gospel. He gave everything we need in nascent form while forming us in the womb.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do believe something was caused by God to enable our soul to believe.

Already addressed in post #242.

 

[sawdust]

That's because you have failed to understand that saved, according to Strong's concordance, means delivered.

There is a one time eternal deliverance=salvation that took place on the cross, but there are many deliverance's that the born again people receive as they sojourn here in this world. Example: When a born again child of God repents of a sin they have committed they are saved (delivered) from the results of that sin, and are back in fellowship with God.

Eternal salvation (deliverance) took place on the cross, for all of those that God gave to his Son ( John 6:37-40). There will be no more sacrifices for sins. Those that Christ died for will, at sometime in their life, be born again. Being born again is the result of having already been given the promise of an eternal inheritance on the cross.

After Christ died for those that his Father gave him, God looks upon them as holy and without blame and their sins are as far away from from God as the east is from the west (Psalms 103:12), however, when they are born, by natural birth, into this world they have inherited the sin of Adam, which makes it necessary for God, by his grace, to quicken them to a new spiritual life, in order to have a people that will honor and praise him. (Luke 19:37-38).

If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation, they will tend to make you believe that eternal deliverance is accomplished by our good works.

I am sure that you have a lot more questions. Let's hear them.

Not failed to understand. Being regenerated means being delivered from spiritual death and believing in the Gospel of Christ means being delivered from spiritual death. If one is regenerated in order to believe they are effectively being saved to be saved. We're not talking about believing in Christ as the word of truth for our progressive sanctification, we are talking about passing from death to life.

The original post I quoted basically said no-one can believe the Gospel unless they are first born again. That means a person must first be saved before they can be saved.

 

[Genez]

....

That's because you have failed to understand that saved, according to Strong's concordance, means delivered.

After salvation we need to be delivered from Ignorance which takes place after we are saved....

Those were "Strong words."

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord.​

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are my ways higher than your ways​

and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

Isaiah 55:8-9


........

 

[Genez]

I don't get the point you're trying to make. The text does say "He chose US in Him..." The real question is how did God chose "us" before any of us ever existed? My answer to this question would be that our names were in the "Book of Life" for all eternity; therefore, our existence was guaranteed by God's mere decree.

Omniscience means that God's knowledge of reality is not limited to time.
Right now He is knowing and seeing a billion years into the future.

He does not simply know the future.
He has always been knowing the future.
There never was a time that he did not know all there is a billion years into the future.

Yes.... we are microscopic pea brains in relation to Gods knowledge.

Makes one wonder why He would want anything to do with us.
But, here we are arguing back and forth, even dogmatically, over something that might amount to being only a hunch to some of us.

What we fail to see is the potential of a soul.
After all. Jesus Christ is God being in union with a soul.
What God saved us for is having a potential for our souls that right now we can not dream or imagine.

To begin with. He had to save us out of death into life.
It says so here................

​

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me ​

has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24​

You and I?
And, all believers?
Had to be physically alive when we believed.
We were not physically dead.

So, logically?
He did not save us out of being physically dead.
But, out from being spiritually dead.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me ​

has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." ​

I hope that helps....

 

[Cameron143]

There is no such thing as a foolish coherent question.
Is the orange louder than the speed of light? would be a foolish question. It confuses categories. Who created the uncaused Cause? would be another.
I critiqued your post, not you. I think you may be projecting.

Well...is it?

 

[HeIsHere]

God gave us, as made in His image, faculties of hearing, intellect, conscience, discrimination, faith. he does not need to add a new faculty to us for us to believe the gospel. He gave everything we need in nascent form while forming us in the womb.

Amen!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe @John146 is correct-

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:14 Ψυχικὸς Psychikos|G5591|Adj-NMS|[The] natural δὲ de|G1161|Conj|however ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos|G444|N-NMS|man οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δέχεται dechetai|G1209|V-PIM/P-3S|accepts τὰ ta|G3588|Art-ANP|the things τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GNS|of the Πνεύματος Pneumatos|G4151|N-GNS|Spirit τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|- Θεοῦ· Theou|G2316|N-GMS|of God; μωρία mōria|G3472|N-NFS|foolishness γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for αὐτῷ autō|G846|PPro-DM3S|to him ἐστίν, estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|they are, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not δύναται dynatai|G1410|V-PIM/P-3S|he is able γνῶναι, gnōnai|G1097|V-ANA|to understand [them], ὅτι hoti|G3754|Conj|because πνευματικῶς pneumatikōs|G4153|Adv|spiritually ἀνακρίνεται. anakrinetai|G350|V-PIM/P-3S|they are discerned.

Just in case you are interested-^^^^^^

the natural man. Note: psukikos, the animal man, one who lives in a natural state, and under the influence of his animal passions; for psukē means the inferior and sensual part of man, in opposition to nous, the understanding, or pneuma, the spirit. While the preceding explanation of the words involved has validity, it is not strictly correct for this context. Would "natural man" be in contrast with "intellectual man" or "rational man"?

Rather, "natural man" refers to unrenewed or unregenerate man, without the Holy Spirit; Hodge states "spiritual, when used in the New Testament of persons, never means intellectual. It always means one under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It therefore must have that meaning here" (p. 43).

Which ties in with this-

natural man -- The verse itself identifies him. A reference to a man who does not discern spiritual things.
NLTSB says "people who aren't spiritual", Unbelievers, whose minds are blinded, function in the natural world and see life only through physical eyes (see 2Co_4:4). They cannot appreciate the significance of the Good News, for it is essentially a spiritual message.

But the natural man -- The NIV inserts "the man without the Spirit" for the Greek "the natural man" or "physical man". In 1Co_2:12-13 the word "know" becomes "understand", and erroneously teaching that we cannot understand the Scripture without the direct operation of the Spirit.

the natural man -- Literally, “a natural man,” that is, a man who is not spiritual minded; one un-converted to Christ, one whose interests are confined to the things of this life.

Such a man depends on human wisdom for the solution of all his problems. He lives to please himself and to gratify the desires of the unconverted heart, hence is incapable of understanding and appreciating the things of God.
To him the plan of salvation, the wonderful revelation of God’s love, is folly. He cannot distinguish between worldly philosophy and spiritual truth.

%1Co_3:1; 1Co_15:44; 1Co_15:46, Psa_92:6, Pro_28:5, +*Jer_13:23, +Jas_3:15 g (sensual). Jud_1:19 g (sensual).
receiveth not. FS175B, +Gen_21:16, 1Ki_22:13, 2Ch_18:12, Amo_7:12, Mat_6:23; Mat_13:11, etc. Mat_16:23, *Joh_3:3-6; Joh_8:37; Joh_8:43; Joh_10:6; Joh_10:26-27; Joh_12:37-38; *Joh_14:17, *Rom_8:5-8, *2Co_4:3; *2Co_4:4, 1Jn_4:5.
the things. 1Co_2:12-13, 1Co_3:1, *Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8-15.
they. 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:23, Joh_3:4; Joh_8:51-52; Joh_10:20, Act_17:18; Act_17:20; Act_17:32; Act_18:15; Act_25:19; Act_26:24-25.
foolishness unto. +1Co_1:18; 1Co_4:10, Gen_6:5; Gen_8:21; Gen_31:28, 2Sa_6:16, 2Ki_5:11, 1Ch_15:29, Pro_24:7, Ecc_9:3, +*Jer_17:9, *Mar_7:21-23, *Joh_3:19; Joh_4:11; Joh_4:15; Joh_6:52; Joh_7:36, *Act_17:18, *Rom_8:7; *Rom_8:8, Eph_4:17-19; Eph_5:8, Tit_1:15.
neither can. *Pro_14:6, *Jer_6:10, Joh_1:5; *Joh_3:3; Joh_5:44; +*Joh_6:44; +*Joh_6:45; *Joh_8:43; *Joh_8:47; *Joh_14:17, Act_16:14, *Rom_8:7, **2Co_4:4-6, Col_3:3, *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:27; 1Jn_5:20, Jud_1:19, Rev_2:17; Rev_14:3.
are spiritually. T598, *Pro_25:14, *Pro_1:7; Pro_16:23; *Pro_28:5, *Ecc_8:5, Isa_8:16, *Dan_12:10, +*Joh_7:17, *2Co_4:6, Eph_5:8, Col_1:12-13, 1Th_5:4-5, 1Pe_2:9, +2Pe_3:5 (T707). *1Jn_2:8-11; *1Jn_2:20; *1Jn_2:21, Rev_11:8 g.
discerned. 1Co_4:3-4; 1Co_9:3; 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27; 1Co_14:24, 2Sa_14:17, 1Ki_3:9, Psa_25:14, +*Pro_8:9, Mat_11:6, Luk_7:23; Luk_7:35; Luk_23:14, Act_4:9; Act_12:19; +*Act_17:11; Act_24:8; Act_25:26; Act_28:18 g.

Go through some of the references and see if we can understand the doctrine of Christ Jesus and cease from telling others of misrepresenting the Hagios D'varim of YHVH.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")

Shalom
J.

Sorry, but I only answer to biblical scriptures from the KJV version of the bible. In my studies I believe the scriptures prove scriptures, and they are my only source of study.

You do know that all scripture does not have the same audience. Also, there are portions of scripture that have doctrine for the Jews that does not "harmonize" with the doctrine set forth for the church. The Jews are God's elect people, yet they are enemies of the gospel.

John, I love to defend the doctrine of Christ, and it would help if you would give me some scriptures to help me understand where you are getting your information to support your comments.

 

[Johann]

Sorry, but I only answer to biblical scriptures from the KJV version of the bible. In my studies I believe the scriptures prove scriptures, and they are my only source of study.

My post went right over you-understandably.
J.

 

[PaulThomson]

Omniscience means that God's knowledge of reality is not limited to time.
Right now He is knowing and seeing a billion years into the future.

That is your definition of omniscience you are imposing on the Bible. that's not what the Bible actually says anywhere.

He does not simply know the future.
He has always been knowing the future.
There never was a time that he did not know all there is a billion years into the future.

Yes.... we are microscopic pea brains in relation to Gods knowledge.

And your microscopic pea brain worked out God's abilities without them being revealed by God in the Bible. Clever you.

 

[PaulThomson]

My post went right over you-understandably.
J.

That's because your assertions went right over the bible and did not comport with reasonable rules of comprehension and logic pplied to the bible..

 

[Johann]

That's because your assertions went right over the bible and did not comport with reasonable rules of comprehension and logic pplied to the bible..

Yeah?-please show me where my "assertions" went right OVER the D'varim-can you do that? I'll be waiting.
J.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Lol slip the jab, slip the jab

 

[Johann]

Lol slip the jab, slip the jab

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

J.

 

[Johann]

Lol slip the jab, slip the jab

Some intellectual freaks need to come down a notch or two. My humble opinion.
J.