Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

A little more context.....

Ephesians1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

The Greek indicates a tense that says in eternity past He had blessed us before we were created.

For the Bible nerd....

{Note: 'Every spiritual blessing' refers to things God provided believers at the point of salvation. And, 'having provided blessings' is an aorist participle. The action of the aorist participle precedes the action of the main verb. The main verb is in the next verse 'has elected'. This means 'the blessings' preceded His election of YOU! And, both occurred billions of years before YOU existed!}

That is like parents who have prepared a "baby's room" before their child is born.

God loves us more than we now can realize...

 

[Genez]

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for those who are in Christ. It is a promise of the future adoption, which is, the redemption of the body. It is the promise to be conformed to the image of Christ. One is not predestined until they are in Christ. Not one person is predestined to be in Christ.

Not one person is predestined?

For He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence.

Ephesians 1:4



The question is... For what have they been predestined?
​

 

[John146]

Not one person is predestined?

For He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence.

Ephesians 1:4



The question is... For what have they been predestined?
​

I don’t see the word predestinated in the verse you stated. Plus, you left out the context in the previous verse. Those in Christ have been predestined to the future adoption, which is the redemption of the body.

 

[Genez]

I don’t see the word predestinated in the verse you stated. Plus, you left out the context in the previous verse. Those in Christ have been predestined to the future adoption, which is the redemption of the body.

We only see how the word predestined is defined to do.

Adoption in the Roman era is not what we see it to mean today....

Much to cover...

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Not a good argument. I could also say, "Look at me. Jesus chose me to be saved over you. I am somebody, you're not."

I hardly think calling someone's testimony an argument is appropriate

You should have been a bit more compassionate here, and shared in his testimony first before making a comment, that's normally how you do things of this nature.

 

[Genez]

Not a good argument. I could also say, "Look at me. Jesus chose me to be saved over you. I am somebody, you're not."

Not sooo...

Jesus chose you to be His Bride by predetermining when we were to get saved.
That, He chose us for.

If He did not? He could have had you to be born in the days of King David to have you born then to reveal your belief then.
You would not been the Bride of Christ at salvation if that happened that way.

​

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go ​

and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father ​

in My name He may give you." John 15:16​

OT believers did not ask the Father in the Son's name like the church can. We have been chosen for that.

Like a woman does not choose a husband. We did not choose Him to be our husband. He chose us to take for His Bride.

He chose us to be born at a time in history (the church age) when we would enter into the privilege of being able to ask the Father in His name.

grace and peace ............

 

[John146]

We only see how the word predestined is defined to do.

Adoption in the Roman era is not what we see it to mean today....

Much to cover...

Fortunately, the adoption is defined in scripture for us so we know immediately what it is. The adoption is the redemption of the body.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Regeneration is the process of being saved. But it requires submission to yield to God.

I ask for a scripture with your response, If you can't supply it, Just say so, because it is not there.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”

Very sneaky, to rearrange the wording of John 6:29. Correct wording: This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent = The work of God to allow you to believe, is God's grace in regenerating the person who is dead spiritually, to a new spiritual life, in changing his heart of stone to a soft fleshy heart.

Your sneaky wording: The work of God is this, that ye believe. Your rearrangement of the scripture allows the natural man to believe before he has been born again and that theory will contradict other scriptures.

It amazes me to what extremes you believer's in the works system will go in rewriting the scriptures and interpreting them falsely.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I ask for a scripture with your response, If you can't supply it, Just say so, because it is not there.

God told Abram/Abraham through Him He wanted ""All families"" of the Earth to be Blessed, which is saved and instructed Moses that God's Law is for everyone.

3 ... and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'
+
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.'

God has "predestined" that anyone can be saved and chosen that "ALL families of the earth (Jew and Gentile)" be saved.

The only reason they are not saved is because of "free will" to reject God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Are you saying the Spirit saves you (regeneration) in order to save you (believe in Christ)?

Seems a little redundant to me.

Believing in Christ is a product of being born again. According to Strong's concordance, save=deliver, saved=delivered. salvation=deliverance.

There is a deliverance when a born again person comes unto a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) ( Rom 10:1-3).

If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal deliverance, they will tend to teach that eternal salvation is accomplished by works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

These twelve had not received the Holy Spirit, and yet, they believed and were baptized unto John's baptism. These men received spiritual teaching from John the Baptist and were baptized according to John's teaching of repentance.

Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I believe that it was you that I explained, with scripture, that the old testament saints are born again in the same manner that the new testament saints, and that is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Even John the baptist was born with spiritual birth while still in his mother's womb (Luke 1:41).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God told Abram/Abraham through Him He wanted ""All families"" of the Earth to be Blessed, which is saved and instructed Moses that God's Law is for everyone.

3 ... and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'
+
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.'

God has "predestined" that anyone can be saved and chosen that "ALL families of the earth (Jew and Gentile)" be saved.

The only reason they are not saved is because of "free will" to reject God.

Gen 12:2, God said to Abraham, that he would make of him a "great nation" and that nation would be Israel which is scattered over aii of the earth.

You probably need to research Rom 9.

 

[PaulThomson]

Not seeing how “in Him”, negates the part where Paul says HE chose us.

What does the text actually say?

"For He chose us (hEmas) in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."

Ephesians 1:4

"Us" is "the church". Paul does not say "He chose each of us (ekaston hEmOn) in Christ before the foundation of the world." He says "He chose us (hEmas), i.e. the community of the church, in Christ before the foundation of the world; not specific individuals before the foundation of the world, who ended up added to the church.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the gromised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

God's purpose is not about you personally and individually. God's purpose from the foundation of the world has been to unite all things in heaven and on earth in Jesus Christ. v. 9

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Gen 12:2, God said to Abraham, that he would make of him a "great nation" and that nation would be Israel which is scattered over aii of the earth.

You probably need to research Rom 9.

You probably need to research what Israel means.

 

[John146]

I believe that it was you that I explained, with scripture, that the old testament saints are born again in the same manner that the new testament saints, and that is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Even John the baptist was born with spiritual birth while still in his mother's womb (Luke 1:41).

Nope, you gave one instance where Moses had the Holy Spirit, but even Moses was not sealed unto the day of redemption. He did not meet the NT requirements.

 

[Evmur]

God giving us faith to believe still requires us to act and believe. Someone can give you a lawn mower but the grass isn't getting cut until you "choose" to put the lawn mower into action. We have belief but it doesn't work until we put that belief into action. That's only done by choice.

the predestination is in our fibre, the way we are made, when mama duck quacks her chicks fly to her bosom ... the gooses do not fly to bosom

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You probably need to research what Israel means.

Israel is a nation of of people, and also there is spiritual Israel/Jacob which is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nope, you gave one instance where Moses had the Holy Spirit, but even Moses was not sealed unto the day of redemption. He did not meet the NT requirements.

What is the new testament requirements, according to you?

 

[PennEd]

What does the text actually say?

The text IN context, says THIS:

Ephesians 1:3-5
New King James Version
Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

"He chose us (hEmas), i.e. the community of the church,

Hate to be Captain Obvious, but the Church is made up of individuals. In all 180 times the word "us" (hemas) is used, it refers to a group of INDIVIDUALS.

he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ

SONS OF CHRIST. Each son is an INDIVIDUAL.

I could go on, but let me ask you this question.

Do you think it more offensive to God to:
1. Believe that you, or I, and every other believer are either smarter or more moral than those that reject Christ.

2. Or that God chose His before the foundation of the world.


If you pick 1, you need to explain why you are smarter to have understood the Gospel, or how you are morally superior BEFORE conversion than those that reject Him.