Before putting up your dukes please consider what I'm about to share. As I thought about responding to your post something occurred to me. Ask yourself what denomination refuses to verbalize the name of Jesus as commanded in scripture? In direct opposition this "church" uses the phrase Father, Son and Holy Ghost across the board. They disrespect Jesus, by praying to Mary. They pray to self-proclaimed "saints," instead of praying in the name of Jesus. I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point. I would imagine you realize the denomination I'm speaking of is the Roman Catholic Church. Many churches don't consider themselves as having any affiliation with them at all. Especially since that denomination's practices so blatantly go against the word. I am unaware of any Protestant churches that use the phrase Father, Son and Holy Ghost in prayer, etc. I can only guess their practice of the RCC tradition of water baptizing in the phrase is the result of ignorance.
What if you die before water baptism?
- Thread starter Komentaja
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You may want to read what I say before making such a bogus accusation!
I did NOT say the words of Jesus were a tradition begun by the roman catholic church.
What I did say was forerunners of the RCC began a tradition of using the phrase Father, Son and Holy Ghost when administering water baptisms.
Also, in reference to Matthew 28:19 I said Jesus commanded the apostles to water baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The apostles then OBEYED Jesus' command and water baptized people in the NAME of Jesus.
I did NOT say the words of Jesus were a tradition begun by the roman catholic church.
What I did say was forerunners of the RCC began a tradition of using the phrase Father, Son and Holy Ghost when administering water baptisms.
Also, in reference to Matthew 28:19 I said Jesus commanded the apostles to water baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The apostles then OBEYED Jesus' command and water baptized people in the NAME of Jesus.
The apostles used the name of Jesus. Paul made this clear in 1 Cor. 1:
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name."
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name."
-
1
- Show all
Note historical evidence:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1967 edition, volume 2, pages 56, 59.
“An explicit reference to the Trinitarian formula of baptism cannot be found in the first centuries.”
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS James Hastings, Published 1924, volume 2, Pages 377, 378, 384, 389:
Page 377. “It is clear from the contemporary usage (Acts 1:15; 11:13; Revelations 3:4) that ‘name’ was an ancient synonym for ‘person.’
Page 378 “Whereupon the latter sealed the reception of the candidate into the holy community by invoking ‘the fair name’ of the Lord Jesus upon his head (James 2:7; Revelations 7:3; 9:4; 14:1; 22:4).”
Page 384. “The formula used was “in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” or some synonymous phrase. There is no evidence for the use of the triune name.”
Page 389. The earliest known formula is, “in the name of the Lord Jesus” or some similar phrase...”
DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE—Grant and Rowley (Edited bv James Hastings), 1963 Revised Edition, page 88
…“the primitive Church baptized ‘in’ or ‘into the name of Jesus’ (or ‘Jesus Christ’, or ‘the Lord Jesus’, (1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Acts 8:16; 19:5).... Thus the spoken formula, ‘in the name of Jesus’, effected the presence of the risen Lord and gave the baptized into His possession and protection.
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS Scribner‘s T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 1924, vol 1 Page 380
“Christian baptism, when connected with the mention of a formula, is alluded to four times in the Acts (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5) and the formula is never that of (Matthew 28:19) but is twice in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38, 10:48) and twice in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16, 19:5).
That this was the usual formula of Christian baptism is supported by the evidence of the Pauline Epistles, which speak of being baptized only into Christ or into Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3).
Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded the disciples to baptize in the trine name?
The obvious explanation of the silence of New Testament on the trine name, and the use of another formula in Acts and Paul is that this other formula was the earlier, and that the trine formula is a later edition. It would require very strong argument to controvert this presumption, and none seems to exist”.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, VOLUME 8
“Justin Martys was one of the early Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church who helped change the ancient baptism of “in the Name of Jesus Christ” to the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEIA, 1913 edition, volume 2, Page 265:
“They acknowledge that the original formula for baptism was in the Name of Jesus, but
the pope changed it.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1913 EDITION.
“There has been a theological controversy over the question as to whether baptism in the name of Christ only was ever held valid. Certain texts in the New Testament have given rise to this difficulty.
Thus St Paul (Acts 19
commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christ’s Name: “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
In Acts 10 we read that St Peter ordered others to be baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”. Those who were converted by Philip (Acts 8 “were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ”, and above all we have the explicit command of the Prince of the Apostles: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38).
Owing to these texts some theologians have held that the Apostles baptized in the name of Christ only
HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION—Vol 2, pages 377, 378, 389.
“The Christian baptism was administered using the name of Jesus. The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church history, Baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus, until the time of Justin Martyr, when the trinity formula was used.
Volume 2, page 377, commenting on Acts 2:38, “Name was an ancient synonym for person. Payment was always made in the name of some person, referring to ownership, therefore, one being baptized in Jesus name became his personal property, (“Ye are Christ’s I Corinthians 3:23.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1967 edition, volume 2, pages 56, 59.
“An explicit reference to the Trinitarian formula of baptism cannot be found in the first centuries.”
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS James Hastings, Published 1924, volume 2, Pages 377, 378, 384, 389:
Page 377. “It is clear from the contemporary usage (Acts 1:15; 11:13; Revelations 3:4) that ‘name’ was an ancient synonym for ‘person.’
Page 378 “Whereupon the latter sealed the reception of the candidate into the holy community by invoking ‘the fair name’ of the Lord Jesus upon his head (James 2:7; Revelations 7:3; 9:4; 14:1; 22:4).”
Page 384. “The formula used was “in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” or some synonymous phrase. There is no evidence for the use of the triune name.”
Page 389. The earliest known formula is, “in the name of the Lord Jesus” or some similar phrase...”
DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE—Grant and Rowley (Edited bv James Hastings), 1963 Revised Edition, page 88
…“the primitive Church baptized ‘in’ or ‘into the name of Jesus’ (or ‘Jesus Christ’, or ‘the Lord Jesus’, (1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; Acts 8:16; 19:5).... Thus the spoken formula, ‘in the name of Jesus’, effected the presence of the risen Lord and gave the baptized into His possession and protection.
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS Scribner‘s T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 1924, vol 1 Page 380
“Christian baptism, when connected with the mention of a formula, is alluded to four times in the Acts (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5) and the formula is never that of (Matthew 28:19) but is twice in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38, 10:48) and twice in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16, 19:5).
That this was the usual formula of Christian baptism is supported by the evidence of the Pauline Epistles, which speak of being baptized only into Christ or into Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3).
Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded the disciples to baptize in the trine name?
The obvious explanation of the silence of New Testament on the trine name, and the use of another formula in Acts and Paul is that this other formula was the earlier, and that the trine formula is a later edition. It would require very strong argument to controvert this presumption, and none seems to exist”.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, VOLUME 8
“Justin Martys was one of the early Fathers of the Roman Catholic Church who helped change the ancient baptism of “in the Name of Jesus Christ” to the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEIA, 1913 edition, volume 2, Page 265:
“They acknowledge that the original formula for baptism was in the Name of Jesus, but
the pope changed it.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1913 EDITION.
“There has been a theological controversy over the question as to whether baptism in the name of Christ only was ever held valid. Certain texts in the New Testament have given rise to this difficulty.
Thus St Paul (Acts 19
commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christ’s Name: “they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”In Acts 10 we read that St Peter ordered others to be baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ”. Those who were converted by Philip (Acts 8
“were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ”, and above all we have the explicit command of the Prince of the Apostles: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38).Owing to these texts some theologians have held that the Apostles baptized in the name of Christ only
HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION—Vol 2, pages 377, 378, 389.
“The Christian baptism was administered using the name of Jesus. The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church history, Baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus, until the time of Justin Martyr, when the trinity formula was used.
Volume 2, page 377, commenting on Acts 2:38, “Name was an ancient synonym for person. Payment was always made in the name of some person, referring to ownership, therefore, one being baptized in Jesus name became his personal property, (“Ye are Christ’s I Corinthians 3:23.)
If you think water baptism doesn't save anybody, that's entirely up to your self.
Confessing To God before baptism is one thing, but confirming before a saved brother is another.
If people believe water baptism can save you, who are we to say no it can't
Especially with what Jesus says about it, which is be baptised and receive the gift of the holy spirit.
If people believe you must be baptised to be saved. Is that not a good thing.
I mean if your confident your saved already what difference should it make,.if you think other wise, surely your job is hope people will be saved through water baptism.
Or one to better word, if a person beliefs.with all his heart, water baptism is an essential part of there faith, why should anyone disrespect that.
Or for anyone who is confident they where saved without water baptism, why should such people argue you don't need water baptism to be saved.
What difference should it make,
My concern is God would like you to confess your faith before brothers, .because he would like you to show sincerity.
It may just be that all your sins are washed clean at baptism, because you are openly confessing before brothers. Or it could be the spirit in the saved brother is able to testify to the baptism.
Maybe it's a case of the spirit testifying before God that pleases God.
Confessing To God before baptism is one thing, but confirming before a saved brother is another.
If people believe water baptism can save you, who are we to say no it can't
Especially with what Jesus says about it, which is be baptised and receive the gift of the holy spirit.
If people believe you must be baptised to be saved. Is that not a good thing.
I mean if your confident your saved already what difference should it make,.if you think other wise, surely your job is hope people will be saved through water baptism.
Or one to better word, if a person beliefs.with all his heart, water baptism is an essential part of there faith, why should anyone disrespect that.
Or for anyone who is confident they where saved without water baptism, why should such people argue you don't need water baptism to be saved.
What difference should it make,
My concern is God would like you to confess your faith before brothers, .because he would like you to show sincerity.
It may just be that all your sins are washed clean at baptism, because you are openly confessing before brothers. Or it could be the spirit in the saved brother is able to testify to the baptism.
Maybe it's a case of the spirit testifying before God that pleases God.
-
1
- Show all
No, I imitate God because Paul instructed to do as such. I use it as an educational tool. I want to be more like Christ and the more I imitate doing the things He did it becomes natural for me to want to do those same things. Anyone can follow God and not be like Him. That's why the Church pews are empty. But the Church pews that are full are so because of the person who has imitated God until it becomes a natural instinct.
Precious friend, with all due respect [ for my elder? ], I believe All these
need to be clarified as The ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism [ God's Operation ],
For today, Under Grace, as God Gave Paul, to teach us Truth For The
ONE Body Of Christ, Today?:
Which ONE?:
Thus, with "Simplicity In Christ" no water, "which was Under Law, for the
"lost sheep" of Israel, Yesterday is 'any way' involved" with Neither God's
Operation Of Salvation "By The ONE Holy Spirit," Nor with our sanctification,
Under Grace, Today!!
ONE Spiritual Baptism, "Not" a Second 'symbolic' physical OT ritual.
Why in Jesus' Name would I Ever trust "men who take God's Operation
away from Him," changing It into water?
Amen.
AMEN! ♫ 😇 ↑ Here's a list of All my studies! Which would you like to discuss?
need to be clarified as The ONE [ Spiritual ] Baptism [ God's Operation ],
For today, Under Grace, as God Gave Paul, to teach us Truth For The
ONE Body Of Christ, Today?:
"...There is ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE Baptism..." (Ephesians 4:5)
Which ONE?:
"For By ONE Spirit are we all Baptized into ONE body, whether we
be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been
all made to drink into ONE Spirit. " (1 Corinthians 12:13)
"Ye are Complete In Him...Buried With Him In Baptism, Wherein also
ye are Risen With Him Through The Faith Of The Operation of God,
Who Hath Raised Him from the dead. " (Colossians 2:10, 12)
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been Baptized Into Christ have
put on Christ. " (Galatians 3:26-27)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were Baptized Into
Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we
are buried With Him By Baptism Into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead By The Glory Of The
Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
(Romans 6:3-4)
Thus, with "Simplicity In Christ" no water, "which was Under Law, for the
"lost sheep" of Israel, Yesterday is 'any way' involved" with Neither God's
Operation Of Salvation "By The ONE Holy Spirit," Nor with our sanctification,
Under Grace, Today!!
ONE Spiritual Baptism, "Not" a Second 'symbolic' physical OT ritual.
Why in Jesus' Name would I Ever trust "men who take God's Operation
away from Him," changing It into water?
Amen.
AMEN! ♫ 😇 ↑ Here's a list of All my studies! Which would you like to discuss?
You may be able to train yourself to do things Jesus did. This may change your behavior and outwardly make you appear clean. But it does nothing to change your heart.
Your basic premise is wrong. Acting the same as someone else doesn't cleanse your heart or impart to you or anyone else divine attributes. This is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.
The reason I share this with you is because the Pharisees themselves believed they performed all the law required of them. They were attempting to be holy as God is holy. Jesus called them whited sepulchers. Outwardly they appeared clean, but inwardly they were full of dead men's bones.
I have no way of knowing your spiritual estate, but walking in the Spirit doesn't find the Christian trying to mimic Jesus, but surrendering themselves completely to Him that He might live through them.
You seem resistant to this truth and I'm not sure why. But I don't think further discussion will be of help. Grace and peace.
Your basic premise is wrong. Acting the same as someone else doesn't cleanse your heart or impart to you or anyone else divine attributes. This is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.
The reason I share this with you is because the Pharisees themselves believed they performed all the law required of them. They were attempting to be holy as God is holy. Jesus called them whited sepulchers. Outwardly they appeared clean, but inwardly they were full of dead men's bones.
I have no way of knowing your spiritual estate, but walking in the Spirit doesn't find the Christian trying to mimic Jesus, but surrendering themselves completely to Him that He might live through them.
You seem resistant to this truth and I'm not sure why. But I don't think further discussion will be of help. Grace and peace.
-
1
- Show all
The word of God tells us that water did not save us, but the price Jesus paid on the cross saved us.
The Blood of Jesus washed my sins away, not water baptism.
The work of the cross, not the work of water baptism.
“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Hebrews 9:28)
“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. “ (Romans 5:9)
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7)
“Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)
“But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (I John 1:7)
The word of God says nowhere that water baptism says you.
The word of God does say :
1 John 1:7 says:
but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Hebrews 9:14 says:
The word of God does say :
1 John 1:7 says:
but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Hebrews 9:14 says:
“How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”