Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone
- Thread starter Slayer
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Acts 17:26-27
Magenta, Our problem, in that we disagree, may be that we are studying from a different version of the bible.
I hardly recognized Acts 17:26 from your version. My version says And hath made "from one blood"= or specially the atoning blood of Christ, according to Strong's accordance. From one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth (Rev 5:9 words it like this) and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation)
Your version changes the whole meaning of the verse, replacing Jesus with Adam.
That verse, regardless of version, refers to Adam and not Christ's blood, for all are of Adam
until born again. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all
living. Following the flood, all were descendants of Noah, from the line of Seth via Adam.
Your interpretation has all men saved whether they believe and have faith or not.
That is why we disagree... since, without faith, it is impossible to please God.
I am not sure that you know what I believe. God chose an elect people before the foundation of the world. You claim, if I am not mistaken, the elect is referring to the church. I believe that is true, because all of God's elect comprise the church.
All mankind are born into this world, by natural birth with the baggage of Adam's sin, even the elect. God, at sometime in the elect's life, by his grace and without any action on their part, quickens his elect to a new spiritual life with the indwelling of his Holy Spirit, in which FAITH is a fruit off.
Respectfully, you are miss-interpreting Acts 17:26, due to your incorrect version of the bible and I suspect that your version is responsible for you miss-interpreting many other scriptures.
Keep in mind that all of the scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine.
You seem to have missed where I said Regardless of Version.
Nor did I say anything about election.
You believe people are saved apart from faith. I do not, and that is the crux of our disagreement, unlikely to change.
That all men may be saved... "may" implies can, but not all men "be saved," so there must be a condition?, provision?, in all those the Father has given to the Son.. that is, all those that (believe on the Son: faith) the Father gives to Me...will come to Me... and I will no wise cast him out...Note: I don't see any verse rendered as "all those the Father gives faith.
When I have faith in someone, I don't necessarily know that he will do any particular thing, I only believe that he can, if he willed to, and Jesus told a certain woman when she asked, believing that he could, "I will." (although retrieving the verse with only the search terms "I will" has proven difficult) and her faith was ... (I'm lost for the word, rewarded? realized? hope manifested?)
When I have faith in someone, I don't necessarily know that he will do any particular thing, I only believe that he can, if he willed to, and Jesus told a certain woman when she asked, believing that he could, "I will." (although retrieving the verse with only the search terms "I will" has proven difficult) and her faith was ... (I'm lost for the word, rewarded? realized? hope manifested?)
How can you say, with all honesty, that I believe that people are saved apart from faith, when I just gave you the information that being born again gives them spiritual faith as a fruit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Yes, Eph 2:1-5, plainly states that at the time a person is born again spiritually, that they are yet dead spiritually in their sins. and have no faith about spiritual matters. The only way spiritual birth can take place is by God's grace without any action from mankind. That is why it is called God's grace. The only faith that the unregenerate person has is their faith in mankind and what they can accomplish without God. That kind of faith will not regenerate them spiritually.
Rom 9:16 So it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
The context of John 17 is Jesus praying for the Disciples and the work they will be doing. In John 3:16, Jesus said For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. The Greek word translates to Cosmo. In John 17, Jesus is not talking about Dying for the world; He is talking about praying for those called to do the purpose of HIS Gospel.
If you read on in Chapter 17, Jesus said this in verse 20.
20“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
That is ALL WHO WILL be saved. Jesus said these things before the Cross. The Love of the world was not reduced because Jesus prayed for only Specific people.
This is seen in his last words to the Apostles in Acts chapter 1. Also in Matthew 28:18-20
If you read on in Chapter 17, Jesus said this in verse 20.
20“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
That is ALL WHO WILL be saved. Jesus said these things before the Cross. The Love of the world was not reduced because Jesus prayed for only Specific people.
This is seen in his last words to the Apostles in Acts chapter 1. Also in Matthew 28:18-20
Forest... I can say with all honesty, that you believe that people are saved apart from faith, because
that is what you have imparted to me again and again, and you just did now, again, too.
There are many non-Christians who are trusting in God and are sceptical towards man's abiiity to right the world, but are unregenerated.
It means nothing without Christ.
There is no other Way, no other Truth and no other Eternal life. There is no other Door or gate. It is The Lord Jesus or nothing.
Irrelevant. I was not responding to a claim that only faith in Jesus Christ can join us to God. The claim was that the unregenerate can have no faith in God, but the unregenerate can only have faith in themselves and other humans.
I was responding to this -
ForestGreenCook said:
The only faith that the unregenerate person has is their faith in mankind and what they can accomplish without God.
People can have faith in God to supply answers to man's corruption of himself, his society and his world without yet believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah, Saviour and Lord. It is untrue that the unregenerate can only have and put all their faith in man.
Here is where you are wrong [and most evangelicals of all ages Catholic/Protestant] you say "they go to their graves unbelievers, they are sealed for destruction"
Now the bible does not say so.
There is only 1 final judgement you'll agree. John calls it the great white throne judgement, in Matt 25 it is the sheep and goats.
In BOTH these scriptures people are judged according to what they have done. The sheep did well the goats not so much.
The church is not here except that God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge. John says we were in the first resurrection [blessed are they] John says we are passed over from judgement to life. We will have been raptured 1, 000 years before this second resurrection, we will have reigned with Christ. THEREFORE
Therefore whoever they are these sheep who find mercy on that day, they are not the church, they are a different bunch from those who Jesus calls "these My brethren." NO WAY are these the church, so who are they?
They are the meek who will inherit the earth, the new earth. We belong in heaven, these who were judged by the deeds inherit the earth.
WHO says so? ... ME, I say so. I will NEVER believe that billions of human souls will be in hell. The wicked will be in hell and I'm not afraid to preach it. The reason folks find this doctrine so difficult to preach [except from a pulpit] is because they feel instinctively that it is wrong, the Holy Spirit is convicting them that it is wrong even as they speak.
Another aspect? It's conjecture on my part. But the brain stays "charged" for a few minutes after we die......that's a LONG time for the Lord to work some serious crisis evangelism to unbelievers.
The Point is without Christ, the ability to, as you said,
"There are many non-Christians who are trusting in God."
Without Christ, their "trust" is in vain. That is my only point. Of course, they are not regenerated. They don't have CHRIST. No people can believe they have faith in God, but without Christ, that faith is in vain.
You are absolutely right, that I believe that a person's faith will not save them eternally, nor any other works, or actions on the part of mankind can save a person eternally. Eternal inheritance has been promised for all of those that God chose before the foundation of the world and gave to his Son to be redeemed from their sins by Christ's death on the cross.
There will be no other eternal salvation offered to mankind. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not an offering to mankind for their acceptance.
Salvation, according to Strong's concordance, means "a deliverance". The scriptures do teach that there is a deliverance (salvation) for God's born again elect as they sojourn here on earth, which leads you, and a lot of other, well intended elect, to believe they have to take some kind of action (works) to receive eternal deliverance (salvation).
The scriptures do teach, that there is a one time eternal deliverance for the elect that took place on the cross, and there are many deliverance's, by works, that the born again elect receives as they live here on earth.
Your insistence in applying all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures to mean eternal salvation is why you mistakenly believe mankind has to respond, in some way, to get eternally saved (delivered).
Are you implying that God desires to save some that will not come to him? That man has the power to resist his desires?