Works and Salvation
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imagine why he’s saying that about the grace of God in Titus there
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
We are saved by that “grace of God that brings salvation to all men ……that process in Titus so we can face the judgement with a clear conscience and slate having an intercessor we can repent and be forgiven and learn the good things of God now before this
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:4-11 KJV
We are saved by that “grace of God that brings salvation to all men ……that process in Titus so we can face the judgement with a clear conscience and slate having an intercessor we can repent and be forgiven and learn the good things of God now before this
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
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I didn't say anything about the experience producing the reality.
Someone can have the appearance of obedience to God, but without the power of God, it would be missing the whole goal of what God commanded and wouldn't really be obedience.
It would be unjust if we became guilty of breaking laws that we haven't broken if we break any law, so that is not what James was saying, but rather he was saying that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, so we need to have consistency in our obedience. In James 2:11, if we do not commit adultery, but we do commit murder, then we have become a violator of the law, which means that we need to repent.
Someone can have the appearance of obedience to God, but without the power of God, it would be missing the whole goal of what God commanded and wouldn't really be obedience.
It would be unjust if we became guilty of breaking laws that we haven't broken if we break any law, so that is not what James was saying, but rather he was saying that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, so we need to have consistency in our obedience. In James 2:11, if we do not commit adultery, but we do commit murder, then we have become a violator of the law, which means that we need to repent.
agree
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
James 2:10
If I’ve ever told a lie I’ve proven to be a lawbreaker. If I have ever committed adultery I’ve proven myself a law breaker , if I ever covet , I’ve proven myself a law breaker who’s broken Gods law
that is the purpose of the law
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
James 2:10
If I’ve ever told a lie I’ve proven to be a lawbreaker. If I have ever committed adultery I’ve proven myself a law breaker , if I ever covet , I’ve proven myself a law breaker who’s broken Gods law
that is the purpose of the law
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20
You carefully craft words to say exactly as I have said, and then deny what you have said. Then you make blanket statements of truth to make it seem as though your previous false statement wasn't actually what you said. And James means exactly what he said. Breaking any commandment makes you as guilty as if you have broken them all. You sin or do not sin. You don't kinda sorta sin.
The law has no part in salvation. Grace alone through faith saves. If you do not receive the grace and the attending salvation first, you cannot obey the law. And by trying to obey, the grace does not come. Read Romans 3:10 and following and see the natural estate of man before salvation. He is incapable of obedience. He is opposed to God. Another good example is Ephesians 2:1-3. Man is dead, being devastated by Satan, and doomed. Then verse 4...BUT GOD...If not for the intervention of God, the natural man is helpless to change his situation. The natural estate of man makes it impossible for him to even understand the depth of his predicament. It is only the grace of God that produces the faith necessary for salvation and the goodness of God that leads him into repentance. Your nuanced works gospel is false and dangerous.
The law has no part in salvation. Grace alone through faith saves. If you do not receive the grace and the attending salvation first, you cannot obey the law. And by trying to obey, the grace does not come. Read Romans 3:10 and following and see the natural estate of man before salvation. He is incapable of obedience. He is opposed to God. Another good example is Ephesians 2:1-3. Man is dead, being devastated by Satan, and doomed. Then verse 4...BUT GOD...If not for the intervention of God, the natural man is helpless to change his situation. The natural estate of man makes it impossible for him to even understand the depth of his predicament. It is only the grace of God that produces the faith necessary for salvation and the goodness of God that leads him into repentance. Your nuanced works gospel is false and dangerous.
Here is what James, brother of Christ says about works and salvation;
Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth itprofit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Peace.
Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth itprofit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Peace.
Moses led his people out of Egypt, but they cried to go back to slavery, so they ended up at Sinai, and you think that God sent Jesus to lead them back to Sinai. The law doesn't bring salvation.
The Word Brings Salvation
(Isaiah 65:1–16)
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. 3Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.
The Word Brings Salvation
(Isaiah 65:1–16)
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. 3Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.
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Salvation from continuing to live in sin is something that is happening in the present and what it looks like is living in obedience to God's law. Asking for a percentage of our contribution vs that of Jesus is completely missing the point of what the gift of salvation is. No amount of doing good works contributes anything towards earning our salvation because that was never the purpose for why God commanded them, rather having the experience of doing good works is intrinsically the content of God's gift of saving us from not having the experience of doing good works.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, so again that is the content of God's gift of salvation, not something we need to contribute vs Christ. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, not us adding to what he accomplished.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, so again that is the content of God's gift of salvation, not something we need to contribute vs Christ. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, not us adding to what he accomplished.
Your using loaded phrases which confuse people.
Here is what you wrote, "and the gift of His law".
Please try and be more accurate. You threw 600 of those laws in the dust bin.
Just say the decalogue or the ten commandments, don't use the word "law".
The decalogue tells the Jews what they are not to do, they are not instructions for good works.
Here is what you wrote, "and the gift of His law".
Please try and be more accurate. You threw 600 of those laws in the dust bin.
Just say the decalogue or the ten commandments, don't use the word "law".
The decalogue tells the Jews what they are not to do, they are not instructions for good works.
You're talking in circles rather than addressing what I said.
I agree that James meant exactly what he said, though I do not think that you correctly understand what he said. Breaking any law makes us as guilty as if we have broken them all in the sense that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, not in the sense that that we become guilty of committing adultery if we commit favoritism or transgress some other law.
Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is intrinsically part of our salvation and those who deny that they are obligated to obey it are denying that they need salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works.
My distinction addresses the issue that there are many verses that describe our salvation as requiring us to be doers of works along with many verses that deny that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works.
I agree that James meant exactly what he said, though I do not think that you correctly understand what he said. Breaking any law makes us as guilty as if we have broken them all in the sense that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, not in the sense that that we become guilty of committing adultery if we commit favoritism or transgress some other law.
Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is intrinsically part of our salvation and those who deny that they are obligated to obey it are denying that they need salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works.
My distinction addresses the issue that there are many verses that describe our salvation as requiring us to be doers of works along with many verses that deny that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works.
By "the gift of His law" I was referring to the gift of the 613 commandments, not to just the decalogue. God's law instructs His people, not just the decalogue. The Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so verses that speak about the Law of God are referring to the Law of Moses, such as Roman 7:22 and Romans 8:4-7.
That's exactly what I mean.
There are many examples of 'the law', having different meaning in the context.
Here is a verse with two different examples of "the law", applying to different subjects.
Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
As far as I am concerned, 'the law of sin', meaning the deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5).
I was not born under the law, therefore, 'the law of God' will always be the commandments below.
1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
There are many examples of 'the law', having different meaning in the context.
Here is a verse with two different examples of "the law", applying to different subjects.
Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
As far as I am concerned, 'the law of sin', meaning the deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5).
I was not born under the law, therefore, 'the law of God' will always be the commandments below.
1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
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