The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, I believe them the same. But when speaking of things spiritual, it can be difficult (for me at least), to distinguish where one starts and another ends -if they do start and end and are not all of one. Not sure if these will help - but a few quick ones:

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[Act 1:5 KJV] 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[Act 11:16 KJV] 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.




I believe the best of the good works is in the sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ - far above any of the others.
I believe that good works must be borne of the spiritual and not of the earthly. And if of the spiritual, then the earthly are its manifestations, and therefore, after-effects and results, not cause.

Yes, all of the born again elect's good works are not the cause of eternal life, but are the effects of being born again.

So, do you believe that the born again elect's good works are the cause of them reaping many deliverance's (salvation's) as they live here on earth, such as baptism?

I, also, would like to know your interpretation of Jacob/Israel representing the total sum of the elect (Rev 5:9), and if, both, the house of Jacob/Israel and the remnant of the house of Israel make up that sum total?

I believe the interpretation of the two gates of Matt 7 is that those that go into the wide gate, are Jacob/Israel of whom God has blinded their eyes to understand the doctrine if Christ, and are teaching many false doctrines, that leads to destruction, and those that are the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel are the ones that find the strait gate and the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth of the doctrine of Christ, that leads to a peaceful and joyful life as they sojourn here on earth.

I, also believe that Ezk 10, especially verse 10 harmonizes with Matt 7. The larger outer wheel (which in my words term as the invisible church) the wide gate, and the smaller, inner wheel as being (the visible church) that is preaching the truth of Christ's doctrine,

 

[rogerg]

So, do you believe that the born again elect's good works are the cause of them reaping many deliverance's (salvation's) as they live here on earth, such as baptism?

I believe that our good works are manifested by us only by/from having been saved/born-again - that we walk in them comes to us from that. I do not believe earthly baptism, nor any other earthly deed by man, can provide him with the ability to deliver himself in any sense from anything, because I do not believe that to be the point of good works. Were that a requirement, then in essence, it would impose upon man, a new, additional, level of choice/actions neither directed or defined by the Bible - with those then to be solely determined ad-hoc through man's own assessment - which would thereby artificially fall between what God has ordained we do and the doing of it.

I, also, would like to know your interpretation of Jacob/Israel representing the total sum of the elect (Rev 5:9), and if, both, the house of Jacob/Israel and the remnant of the house of Israel make up that sum total?

I believe as Rev 5:9 so states, they were/are saved "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation". By that, we know earthly affiliations no longer have any relevance, merit, or standing with, God - if that was your point. I think that God used allegory in the Bible of earthly things as illustrative of the true/actual of the spiritual. So, when we see those kinds of earthly names being mentioned relative to salvation, I think they should be understood from that perspective.

 

[PaulThomson]

Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.

Prove it.

 

[brightfame52]

Prove it.

Only God can do that.

 

[PaulThomson]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.

Prove it.

Only God can do that.

So, someone made it up. Scripture doesn't say it.

 

[rogerg]

ForestGreenCook said:
Born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which faith as one of his fruits, is a different kind of faith.





So, someone made it up. Scripture doesn't say it.

This help?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[PaulThomson]

This help?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The fruit of nature acting on a planted apple is more apples. Are they different kinds of apples?
It's practising more of the same faith more consistently.

Romans 1:17 For [in the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to fsith, as it is written, "The just shall keep on living by faith."
It's the same faith in Christ, but enduring into the future. It's the same faith in the same object of faith enduring into the future.

The faith of the Son of God is an enduring faith that has God as it's object. That is also the same faith we have.
If I discover later in life that I have my father's skill at fixing things, I did not suddenly download a new skill set from my father so that I am using my Fathers skills. Nor is my father actively channeling himself through me without my own participation. I have developed the confidence to do what my father also does.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, in what manner do you think the old testament saints were born again?

God imputes righteousness in our day and time the in the same manner He imputed righteousness to OT folks:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him for righteousness.


Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus made clear that He had to go away in order for Him to send the Holy Spirit ... the Lord Jesus Christ had to come ... had to fulfill all the law and the prophets ... had to overcome the wicked one ... had to die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven before He could send that which was not available prior to His having ascended into heaven:

Jesus ascended on Resurrection Sunday morning (John 20:17 "I am ascending to my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God"), and received the Holy Spirit (Zec. 3) which He sent to the disciples on Resurection Sunday evening. John 20:22 ("Receive ye the Holy Spirit").

Jesus was speaking about His going away for a little while, namely the period of His death from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning.

On the day of ascension, Jesus told His apostles

Acts 1:

4 And, being assembled together with them [the apostles – Acts 1:2], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

...

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


In vs 5, the words "shall be baptized" are in the future tense, which indicates they had not yet been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

In vs 8, the words "shall receive power" are in the future tense, which indicates they had not yet received the promise of the Father.
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[reneweddaybyday]

to further illustrate the difference, the enemies that Christ died for which were reconciled to God while enemies, thus already reconciled

:rolleyes ... if they are "thus already reconciled" then there is no need for reconciliation ... which is what I told you on May 21, 2021 in Post 3 of this thread:

If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.​

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

See the difference now between the two different sets of enemies and unbelievers ? One set shall be saved by Christ's Life, the other set shall not see Life, but shall remain under the wrath of God ! Christ's Death makes the difference, not faith !

... read the verse again, brightfame52 ... I have made it easy for you ... just pay attention to the words in red and the words in blue.

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

believe = have everlasting life

don't believe = do not have everlasting life ... but do have wrath of God
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The sacrifice is wholly sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind.

It was not a sacrifice to cover all of mankind.

So it appears you are another who believes the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the only begotten Son of the Father ... is insufficient ... pretty sad on your part, ForestGreenCook

(John 6:37-40)

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It was not enough to see the Lord Jesus Christ when He walked on the earth ... those who saw Him and believed were the ones who may have everlasting life.

Nothing has changed ... from Genesis to Revelation God has made clear that it is through faith / believing that righteousness is imputed.

Descendants of Adam who reject God do so of their own accord because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out to them.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 5:19 ... Heb 7:22 ... Heb 10:5-9 ... Matt 22:36-38 ... Matt 22:39-40 ... Rom 5:19 ... Isa 42:21 ... Isa 42:6 ... Heb 7:22 ... Rom 5:19 ... Rom 5:10,19 ... 1 Cor 2:14

You skip from Scripture to Scripture without comprehending the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verses.

Example ... you skip from Hebrews 7:22 which discusses the better priesthood of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hebrews 10:5-9 which discusses the better sacrifice the Lord Jesus Christ was than the sacrifices under the old covenant.

In running to and fro to establish your own erroneous dogma, you reveal that you are wholly ignorant of what the Author of Scripture wants you to understand and know.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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[reneweddaybyday]

All for whom The True Christ died

Scripture is quite clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

if anyone for whom Christ gave Himself for their sins is not delivered from this present evil world, His death failed the Will and Purpose of God Our Father !

... you are the only one in this forum who claims that the death of the Lord Jesus Christ "failed".

the failure is on the part of those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ for all the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.

For those who reject, there is no more offering for sin. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only offering for sin. God will accept no other offering.
.

 

[brightfame52]

:rolleyes ... if they are "thus already reconciled" then there is no need for reconciliation ... which is what I told you on May 21, 2021 in Post 3 of this thread:

If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.​

​

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.​

​

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.​

​

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:​

​

Romans 3:​

​

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

​

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

​

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

​

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

​

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).​

​

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...​

​

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...​

​

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.​

.

More opposition to the Truth

 

[brightfame52]

... read the verse again, brightfame52 ... I have made it easy for you ... just pay attention to the words in red and the words in blue.

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

believe = have everlasting life

don't believe = do not have everlasting life ... but do have wrath of God
.

More opposing of the truth

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture is quite clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





... you are the only one in this forum who claims that the death of the Lord Jesus Christ "failed".

the failure is on the part of those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ for all the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.

For those who reject, there is no more offering for sin. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only offering for sin. God will accept no other offering.
.

More opposing of the truth

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Prove it.

1 Cor 2:14.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

the failure is on the part of those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ for all the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of

Are all mankind Jesus's sheep? (John 10:26-29).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the failure is on the part of those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ for all the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.

Are all mankind Jesus's sheep?

... do you believe those who reject the more than sufficient offering of the Lord Jesus Christ are "Jesus's sheep"?

Or perhaps brightfame52 is not alone and you are in agreement with him when he says the Lord Jesus Christ "failed" ???

I clearly stated that there was no failure on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ. the failure rests solely on those who reject the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only one offering which is acceptable to God. If you reject the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no other offering acceptable to God ... you will die in your sins.
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