The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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I think "the measure of faith" is that those saved/born-again are given the ability to measure faith, not that everyone gets a measure of faith.
The faith that is to be measured is Christ's faith, which faith, demonstrates that He is the Saviour. Only those saved/born-again
have been/are given that ability to measure.
[Rom 12:3 KJV] 3 For[G1063] I say,[G3004] through[G1223] the grace[G5485] given[G1325] unto me,[G3427] to every man[G3956] that is[G5607] among[G1722] you,[G5213] not[G3361] to think [of himself] more[G3844] highly[G5252] than[G3739] he ought[G1163] to think;[G5426] but[G235] to think[G5426] soberly,[G1519][G4993] according as[G5613] God[G2316] hath dealt[G3307] to every man[G1538] the measure[G3358] of faith.[G4102]
G3358:
[Eph 4:13 KJV] 13 Till[G3360] we all[G3956] come[G2658] in[G1519] the unity[G1775] of the faith,[G4102] and[G2532] of the knowledge[G1922] of the Son[G5207] of God,[G2316] unto[G1519] a perfect[G5046] man,[G435] unto[G1519] the measure[G3358] of the stature[G2244] of the fulness[G4138] of Christ:[G5547]
The faith that is to be measured is Christ's faith, which faith, demonstrates that He is the Saviour. Only those saved/born-again
have been/are given that ability to measure.
[Rom 12:3 KJV] 3 For[G1063] I say,[G3004] through[G1223] the grace[G5485] given[G1325] unto me,[G3427] to every man[G3956] that is[G5607] among[G1722] you,[G5213] not[G3361] to think [of himself] more[G3844] highly[G5252] than[G3739] he ought[G1163] to think;[G5426] but[G235] to think[G5426] soberly,[G1519][G4993] according as[G5613] God[G2316] hath dealt[G3307] to every man[G1538] the measure[G3358] of faith.[G4102]
G3358:
- measure, an instrument for measuring
- a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
- a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
- proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
- determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
- the required measure, the due, fit, measure
[Eph 4:13 KJV] 13 Till[G3360] we all[G3956] come[G2658] in[G1519] the unity[G1775] of the faith,[G4102] and[G2532] of the knowledge[G1922] of the Son[G5207] of God,[G2316] unto[G1519] a perfect[G5046] man,[G435] unto[G1519] the measure[G3358] of the stature[G2244] of the fulness[G4138] of Christ:[G5547]
By His Obedience many shall be made Righteous !
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This is another Grand Truth of the Gospel of Gods Grace that the religious condemned world cannot and will not be persuaded of or believe, that many are made Righteous unto God solely by the Obedience of Christ alone, which obedience is His both Actively and Passively, and here's why ! In His Obedience He acted as a Surety of a Better Covenant Heb 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament/covenant.
Thats what is meant here Heb 10:5-9
Now in doing this, Two things were accomplished unto the People of God and for His Glory in making them Righteous, First in His Obedience Active, He performed the Perfect Obedience that Gods Law demanded out of Love to God, for He performed the First and Greatest Commandment here stated Matt 22:36-38
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
As well as this One did He obey fully Matt 22:39-40
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So Christ performed these Two Commandments Perfectly by His Active Obedience to Gods Law for the Many He made Righteous Rom 5:19 which they failed to do in Adam the first ! And Secondly He gave Satisfaction to Gods Offended Law, That is Satisfaction to His Divine Justice, wherein they had disobeyed Gods Law first in Adam their Natural and Federal Head and in themselves which they would be committing once they were born into this world as sinners and transgressors personally; and by this His Suretyship Obedience for them He did this which was spoken by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 42:21
21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
This refers back to Him in His Suretyship obedience for the People Isa 42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant[Surety Heb 7:22] of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
God out of Grace has accepted Jesus Surety Obedience for many, making His Surety Obedience to His Law, theirs, and thats why it is stated Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This is why their sins, transgressions are forgiven and they reconciled to God, even when they themselves by nature are Gods enemies to Him Rom 5:10,19, what Grace, this the Natural man cannot receive 1 Cor 2:14 !
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This is another Grand Truth of the Gospel of Gods Grace that the religious condemned world cannot and will not be persuaded of or believe, that many are made Righteous unto God solely by the Obedience of Christ alone, which obedience is His both Actively and Passively, and here's why ! In His Obedience He acted as a Surety of a Better Covenant Heb 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament/covenant.
Thats what is meant here Heb 10:5-9
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will[As A Surety of a Better Covenant or Testament], O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first[Testament], that he may establish the second/Better[Testament].
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will[As A Surety of a Better Covenant or Testament], O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first[Testament], that he may establish the second/Better[Testament].
Now in doing this, Two things were accomplished unto the People of God and for His Glory in making them Righteous, First in His Obedience Active, He performed the Perfect Obedience that Gods Law demanded out of Love to God, for He performed the First and Greatest Commandment here stated Matt 22:36-38
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
As well as this One did He obey fully Matt 22:39-40
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So Christ performed these Two Commandments Perfectly by His Active Obedience to Gods Law for the Many He made Righteous Rom 5:19 which they failed to do in Adam the first ! And Secondly He gave Satisfaction to Gods Offended Law, That is Satisfaction to His Divine Justice, wherein they had disobeyed Gods Law first in Adam their Natural and Federal Head and in themselves which they would be committing once they were born into this world as sinners and transgressors personally; and by this His Suretyship Obedience for them He did this which was spoken by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 42:21
21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
This refers back to Him in His Suretyship obedience for the People Isa 42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant[Surety Heb 7:22] of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
God out of Grace has accepted Jesus Surety Obedience for many, making His Surety Obedience to His Law, theirs, and thats why it is stated Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This is why their sins, transgressions are forgiven and they reconciled to God, even when they themselves by nature are Gods enemies to Him Rom 5:10,19, what Grace, this the Natural man cannot receive 1 Cor 2:14 !
In rereading my post #2203, I can see that it did not convey what I had intended it to. I did not intend it to say that those
saved are not given Christ's faith by God as a gift by the fruit of the Spirit, because I most definitely believe they are given it- and that is the only way anyone can receive it. But in retrospect, in the way my post read, it could easily be misinterpreted that I meant otherwise: that those saved aren't given faith. What I was actually trying to communicate however was that they alone (in addition to being given His faith as a gift), are also given the ability to measure/assess/perceive Christ's faith - given the wisdom that His faith demonstrated Him the Saviour - that He was perfectly faithful to the Father in the things appointed unto Him by the Father. Bad mistake on my part- I should have been much more precise and clearer about that. Sorry for any misunderstanding that may have caused.
saved are not given Christ's faith by God as a gift by the fruit of the Spirit, because I most definitely believe they are given it- and that is the only way anyone can receive it. But in retrospect, in the way my post read, it could easily be misinterpreted that I meant otherwise: that those saved aren't given faith. What I was actually trying to communicate however was that they alone (in addition to being given His faith as a gift), are also given the ability to measure/assess/perceive Christ's faith - given the wisdom that His faith demonstrated Him the Saviour - that He was perfectly faithful to the Father in the things appointed unto Him by the Father. Bad mistake on my part- I should have been much more precise and clearer about that. Sorry for any misunderstanding that may have caused.
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I agree but probably would phrase it as believing. I think that we (the saved) are imputed the singular faith of Christ upon becoming born again by the Holy Spirit, but through the edification, teaching, and enlightening, of the Holy Spirit, that faith (Christ's) is incrementally translated/applied into becoming our believing. As our spiritual wisdom grows, so does the believing, but Christ's faith is its foundation and prerequisite. I think this process is never-ending, ever continuing, and lasts throughout the lifetimes of those saved.
No problem. Misunderstandings are why we are allowed more posts. And like you, I believe the believer will recognize the faith given. But I don't believe it's instantaneous understanding. When salvation occurs, even for those who are raised in church, there is a definite awareness of something going on but recognizing what has occurred is informed to us over time. We are given faith sufficient to believe, but I have yet to meet a new convert who knows all that has truly transpired. It is as we grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord that the Spirit imparts the fruit of faith. And He may also impart the particular gift of faith, but not necessarily so.
My original post was simply to draw a attention to the distinction between faith given in salvation, faith that manifests in us as the result of the ongoing work of the Spirit in us...fruit...and faith as a gift given after salvation severally to believers as He wills.
My original post was simply to draw a attention to the distinction between faith given in salvation, faith that manifests in us as the result of the ongoing work of the Spirit in us...fruit...and faith as a gift given after salvation severally to believers as He wills.
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I think that my belief is in line as to what you believe, but let me ask you this question; Do you believe the scriptures to teach that salvation, according to Strong's concordance, means "a deliverance", and if so, do you believe that there is a "deliverance" that the children of God receives as they sojourn here on earth that is brought about by their good works?
I believe this is why so many of God's born again children falsely believe that their eternal deliverance is gained by their good works.
I believe this is why so many of God's born again children falsely believe that their eternal deliverance is gained by their good works.
Thanks for understanding, Cameron143.
I think that believing is not instantaneous, and that is why the Bible makes distinction between the two: faith and believing. Believing, I think, comes and increases through the Holy Spirit incrementally over time by edification. Faith, on the other hand, I believe is from Christ, imputed unto us once, from which, comes our believing unto Christ: one is to us; one is from us. By faith, I mean the faith of Christ, I do not mean this as a faith for the administration of gifts. The faith of Christ is Christ's faith which brought salvation to fruition, which when imputed to someone is salvation. I believe that to be different from a faith which is necessary for the carrying out of tasks of/for ministration of the spiritual body of believers - so, as pertaining to the faith of Christ, we are but its beneficiaries.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "sufficient faith to believe". I would think that once faith is given to someone, that they must, of necessity, without question, come to a believing in Christ as Saviour. If you meant "the fruit of faith", as being apart from the faith of/from fruit of the Spirit, I would agree, but the term that I would use for it is believing.
But essentially, if I understand you correctly, I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, but perhaps using somewhat
different terms to do so.
I think that believing is not instantaneous, and that is why the Bible makes distinction between the two: faith and believing. Believing, I think, comes and increases through the Holy Spirit incrementally over time by edification. Faith, on the other hand, I believe is from Christ, imputed unto us once, from which, comes our believing unto Christ: one is to us; one is from us. By faith, I mean the faith of Christ, I do not mean this as a faith for the administration of gifts. The faith of Christ is Christ's faith which brought salvation to fruition, which when imputed to someone is salvation. I believe that to be different from a faith which is necessary for the carrying out of tasks of/for ministration of the spiritual body of believers - so, as pertaining to the faith of Christ, we are but its beneficiaries.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "sufficient faith to believe". I would think that once faith is given to someone, that they must, of necessity, without question, come to a believing in Christ as Saviour. If you meant "the fruit of faith", as being apart from the faith of/from fruit of the Spirit, I would agree, but the term that I would use for it is believing.
But essentially, if I understand you correctly, I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, but perhaps using somewhat
different terms to do so.
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The gift of faith is different from both the faith given in salvation and that imparted by the ongoing work of the Spirit as fruit. The latter 2 are universal to the Christian experience. The former is not. Just as every believer doesn't receive the gift of interpretation of tongues, neither does every believer receive the gift of faith. All are given a measure of faith, but this doesn't correspond to the gift of faith.
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Mark 16:16 is one example. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Baptism does not save (deliver) a person eternally, but it does deliver (save) a believer from their guilty conscience (1 Pet 3:21). To me, there are many more scriptures that means a deliverance that the elect receives as they sojourn here on earth, than there are that delivers them eternally. That is why so many, well intent, elect of God that applies all of the salvation scriptures to mean an eternal deliverance, think they have to do something to get saved.
The scriptures do teach that there is a salvation (deliverance) that is gained by the born again elect's good works, but it is not eternal. Look it up in Strong's concordance.
The scriptures do teach that there is a salvation (deliverance) that is gained by the born again elect's good works, but it is not eternal. Look it up in Strong's concordance.
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