TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!

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cv5

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I appreciate you taking the time to answer. And while you have made your argument from scripture, I still have a couple of questions:
...why doesn't the destruction of the temple in the first century correspond to the scriptures you have given?
...even if you're correct about the AoD, what would keep the use of the statue from being symbolic?
Please tell us precisely you think is NOT symbolic in terms of "end-time" eschatology.
Because that list would be much shorter as far as you are concerned. In fact Is suspect that there aren't any entries whatsoever.

Another thing: imposing symbolism everywhere destroys any semblance of an eschatological timeline. Which is absolutely necessary if in fact the Second Coming is to happen at all.

Which should be MORE than sufficient cause to abandon this ridiculous "everything spiritualized and symbolic" theory of eschatology.
 

Cameron143

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In Daniel 9:26, the destruction of the temple and city is the 70 AD event. Destroyed by the Roman army.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Differently, the temple in the end times, yet to be built, will be made desolate (from the worship and praise of God) in Daniel 9:27.

In Daniel 9:27 is the seven years of the end times. There has to be a temple for the daily sacrifice to be stopped in that verse. Once the daily sacrifice is stopped, abominations regrading the temple complex will be what it makes it desolate - even to the consummation of the 70th week.

Then God's judgement will be poured on the temple complex where the abominations will be that will have made it desolate.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The abominations will be the beast-king, the false prophet, the statue image indwelt by Satan. Here is an illustration I made of that day when God's judgment will be poured out on that desolate place, the temple complex.




View attachment 259653
What is the meaning of Matthew 23:38? What made the house desolate? What is the house spoken of?
 

Cameron143

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Please tell us precisely you think is NOT symbolic in terms of "end-time" eschatology.
Because that list would be much shorter as far as you are concerned. In fact Is suspect that there aren't any entries whatsoever.

Another thing: imposing symbolism everywhere destroys any semblance of an eschatological timeline. Which is absolutely necessary if in fact the Second Coming is to happen at all.

Which should be MORE than sufficient cause to abandon this ridiculous "everything spiritualized and symbolic" theory of eschatology.
Symbolism is the hallmark of prophecy. Stars, candlesticks, vials, beasts, etc. But they do represent something. Knowing what they represent is the key to understanding the prophecies.
Asking questions lends itself to increased understanding.
 

Cameron143

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The Roman army dismantled the temple in 70 ad.
Was the temple defiled then? Did anything happen then or even in the time leading up to it that was an abomination?
 

douggg

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Was the temple defiled then? Did anything happen then or even in the time leading up to it that was an abomination?
I am certain that there were. And the Dome of the Rock, 600 years later could also be considered an abomination.

But those are not time of the end, when the little horn person stops the daily sacrifice.
 

Cameron143

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I am certain that there were. And the Dome of the Rock, 600 years later could also be considered an abomination.

But those are not time of the end, when the little horn person stops the daily sacrifice.
The end of what? The world? The old covenant?
 

Cameron143

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When the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Christ, the everlasting kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
Does this have to be evidenced immediately or can the evidence of its occurrence happen over time?
 

douggg

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Does this have to be evidenced immediately or can the evidence of its occurrence happen over time?
It will be evidenced when the 7th angel of Revelation 11 sounds his trumpet, just after the two witnesses will have left this world, day 1263.5 on the 7 year timeline, and Satan and his angels are then cast down to earth, Revelation 12:7-9.

Leaving Satan a time, times, half time before no longer being a terror. Ezekiel 28:19. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

But having great wrath, knowing his time is short, Revelation 12:10, "woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea", the third woe as connected when the 7th angel sounds.

Cast down to the earth, Satan's mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, leading astray the affairs of men, has fallen has fallen as it says in Revelation 18:2.

The end coming for Satan, and his and his angels' kingdom of Babylon the Great.
 

Cameron143

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It will be evidenced when the 7th angel of Revelation 11 sounds his trumpet, just after the two witnesses will have left this world, day 1263.5 on the 7 year timeline, and Satan and his angels are then cast down to earth, Revelation 12:7-9.

Leaving Satan a time, times, half time before no longer being a terror. Ezekiel 28:19. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

But having great wrath, knowing his time is short, Revelation 12:10, "woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea", the third woe as connected when the 7th angel sounds.

Cast down to the earth, Satan's mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, leading astray the affairs of men, has fallen has fallen as it says in Revelation 18:2.

The end coming for Satan, and his and his angels' kingdom of Babylon the Great.
I was speaking of when in history?
Who are the 2 witnesses?
Satan's kingdom has yet to fall?
The book of Revelation is written to what audience? How would they have understood it?
At what point is a kingdom defeated? When it actually falls or when those in control of the kingdom no longer have power to keep all of its inhabitants?
Satan is the subject of Revelation? Or Christ? Kingdoms are the subject of Daniel or Ezekiel? Or Christ? The world is in view in Revelation or Israel?
 

cv5

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Symbolism is the hallmark of prophecy. Stars, candlesticks, vials, beasts, etc. But they do represent something. Knowing what they represent is the key to understanding the prophecies.
Asking questions lends itself to increased understanding.
You got it all wrong buddy.

The THINGS, which were coming to pass (in a time sequence.....obviously and intentionally), were THEN "signified", aka turned into images and patterns and suchlike, AS AN EFFICENT AND EFFECTIVE MEANS TO CONVEY THE INTENDED MESSAGE! Nothing more.

The actual "THINGS", persons, nations, events are as real and palpable and exist thru time as King David and Israel was.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 

douggg

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I was speaking of when in history?
Who are the 2 witnesses?
Satan's kingdom has yet to fall?
The book of Revelation is written to what audience? How would they have understood it?
At what point is a kingdom defeated? When it actually falls or when those in control of the kingdom no longer have power to keep all of its inhabitants?
Satan is the subject of Revelation? Or Christ? Kingdoms are the subject of Daniel or Ezekiel? Or Christ? The world is in view in Revelation or Israel?
1. When in history ? The seven years will begin before the end of 2030, based on the parable of the fig tree. Jerusalem represents the fig tree. 1967 Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews + 70 years for a generation (Psalms 90:10) = 2037 minus 7 years = 2030.

2. The identity of the two witnesses is not for certain. I don't know.

3. Satan's kingdom of Babylon the great has not yet fallen.

3. Revelation directed at the human race, over all.

4. A kingdom is defeated - when it is no more.

5. The subject of Revelation - the mystery of God as He has declared through His servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7).
 

Cameron143

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You got it all wrong buddy.

The THINGS, which were coming to pass (in a time sequence.....obviously and intentionally), were THEN "signified", aka turned into images and patterns and suchlike, AS AN EFFICENT AND EFFECTIVE MEANS TO CONVEY THE INTENDED MESSAGE! Nothing more.

The actual "THINGS", persons, nations, events are as real and palpable and exist thru time as King David and Israel was.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
I never said the symbols were difficult to understand. Nothing I said in the post you quoted is incorrect. All the imagery in Revelation comes from the OT. It's not new language to a first century Jew. I quite imagine it wasn't lost on them. But OT people are often used typically to show some aspect of Christ. Their history is factual; but also typical of spiritual reality. For instance, David's throne being eternal isn't about David. It's about Christ.
Revelation 1:1 is a great verse. It gives the time frame for the book. In case someone misses this, God was gracious to include verses 3 and 7.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Daniel 7 was a dream yes.
The beasts that came up from the ground where not physical in the flesh, they where beasts yes, but they where all Satan's and each satan representing a spiritual kingdoms in spirit in a dream.

.
I’m trying to just get you to recognize the structure Of daniels book , the interpretations are already written in tbe text. You are trying to isolate something that’s not meant to be isolated please consider this

Chapter 2 Nebucadnezzar king of babylon has a dream Daniel gives the interpretation

“This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king,( of Babylon anfter they overthrew Jerusalem annd took them captive ) art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.


And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭2:36-40, 44‬ ‭

also you have four kingdoms Babylon is identified as the first kingdom right there but we see that there would be four kingdoms and then God would set up an ever lasting kingdom that would never fall

Now before you lose that train of thought Daniel later has a dream and then he’s given the interpretation

“In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.


(He has his dream of the four beasts and then wakes and sees a vision of the kingdom of God being set up and the victorious saints ..and then )

…I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. ( that’s the dreams subject matter )

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”( that’s the vision of Christs kingdom subject matter )
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:1, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So again he’s seen four kingdoms rising up in the earth ( one has four heads ) then he sees the saints of God possessing the eternal kingdom

(now he shifts to the fourth beast the fourth kingdom he’s been seeing and hearing about )

“Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

( Still the subject matter is these four kingdoms and then now we have more details about what’s going to happen when the last king rose to power but also not shows the saints victorious in the end )


chaoter 8 daniel sees another vision

“And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is the last example here , but I really believe it’s worth considering because you are t looking at all of the information your trying to isolate daniel seven only the first half

“And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you know how accurate these prophecies were over the next seven hundred years ?

babylon was overthrown by media Persia and took power then Greece led by Alexander the Great conquered media Persia and took power Alexander was killed and his four generals rose up in power over a divided kingdom which resulted in the Roman Empire of Jesus and then the apostles late lives around 70-100 ad

the structure of the book shows several visions of what the subject matter was those four kingdoms that would rise and take dominion over Israel and also the earth at the time Babylon eas the world power then Persia then Greece and finally rome …..

John also is seeing the end of the same things Daniel had seen john was living in the end of daniels prophecy when Rome eho was the world power at that time was destroying the saints and slaughtering those of Jerusalem for a time.

nero wrapped the Christian’s in oil soaked linens crucified them and set
Then ablaze as lamps they worked then in blood threw them to wild dogs hanged them burned them alive crucified them infact Roman society sponsored Christian persecution for a very long time after the Christian’s were blamed by Nero for the burning of rome which set off e mass persecutions and siege of Jerusalem shortly after John was in exile on patmos because he was a Christian at the time but he was fortunate many were slaughtered like James for instance who was beheaded or Peter who was crucified as Jesus foretold him

i think you would benefit just by reading the entire book like chapter 2 or 8 or just even the rest of chapter seven that explains it ….rather than isolating just the dream and then interpreting it yourself but that’s just my theory on it
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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1. When in history ? The seven years will begin before the end of 2030, based on the parable of the fig tree. Jerusalem represents the fig tree. 1967 Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews + 70 years for a generation (Psalms 90:10) = 2037 minus 7 years = 2030.

2. The identity of the two witnesses is not for certain. I don't know.

3. Satan's kingdom of Babylon the great has not yet fallen.

3. Revelation directed at the human race, over all.

4. A kingdom is defeated - when it is no more.

5. The subject of Revelation - the mystery of God as He has declared through His servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7).
Lots of questions with these answers, but what was the mystery revealed?
 
Dec 18, 2023
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Why would saints need a mark on there forehead 🤔

My answer would be so they can't receive the mark of the beast

But what other reason could there be ?

Well I think I could rule out they won't be raptured

Because why would they need a mark on there head to be raptured.

Unless people think the mark on the head will say don't forget to rapture me.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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406
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I’m trying to just get you to recognize the structure Of daniels book , the interpretations are already written in tbe text. You are trying to isolate something that’s not meant to be isolated please consider this

Chapter 2 Nebucadnezzar king of babylon has a dream Daniel gives the interpretation

“This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Thou, O king,( of Babylon anfter they overthrew Jerusalem annd took them captive ) art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.


And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭2:36-40, 44‬ ‭

also you have four kingdoms Babylon is identified as the first kingdom right there but we see that there would be four kingdoms and then God would set up an ever lasting kingdom that would never fall

Now before you lose that train of thought Daniel later has a dream and then he’s given the interpretation

“In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.


(He has his dream of the four beasts and then wakes and sees a vision of the kingdom of God being set up and the victorious saints ..and then )

…I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. ( that’s the dreams subject matter )

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”( that’s the vision of Christs kingdom subject matter )
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:1, 15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So again he’s seen four kingdoms rising up in the earth ( one has four heads ) then he sees the saints of God possessing the eternal kingdom

(now he shifts to the fourth beast the fourth kingdom he’s been seeing and hearing about )

“Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

( Still the subject matter is these four kingdoms and then now we have more details about what’s going to happen when the last king rose to power but also not shows the saints victorious in the end )


chaoter 8 daniel sees another vision

“And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is the last example here , but I really believe it’s worth considering because you are t looking at all of the information your trying to isolate daniel seven only the first half

“And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you know how accurate these prophecies were over the next seven hundred years ?

babylon was overthrown by media Persia and took power then Greece led by Alexander the Great conquered media Persia and took power Alexander was killed and his four generals rose up in power over a divided kingdom which resulted in the Roman Empire of Jesus and then the apostles late lives around 70-100 ad

the structure of the book shows several visions of what the subject matter was those four kingdoms that would rise and take dominion over Israel and also the earth at the time Babylon eas the world power then Persia then Greece and finally rome …..

John also is seeing the end of the same things Daniel had seen john was living in the end of daniels prophecy when Rome eho was the world power at that time was destroying the saints and slaughtering those of Jerusalem for a time.

nero wrapped the Christian’s in oil soaked linens crucified them and set
Then ablaze as lamps they worked then in blood threw them to wild dogs hanged them burned them alive crucified them infact Roman society sponsored Christian persecution for a very long time after the Christian’s were blamed by Nero for the burning of rome which set off e mass persecutions and siege of Jerusalem shortly after John was in exile on patmos because he was a Christian at the time but he was fortunate many were slaughtered like James for instance who was beheaded or Peter who was crucified as Jesus foretold him

i think you would benefit just by reading the entire book like chapter 2 or 8 or just even the rest of chapter seven that explains it ….rather than isolating just the dream and then interpreting it yourself but that’s just my theory on it
sir your explaining the rise of the satan kingdoms in the flesh aspect where satan rules over men,

I'm explaining symbolic spiritual aspect of it and fulfillment of it.

im explaining the spiritual aspect of what the eyes don't see and what those who are only authorised to see.

Jesus showed us the fulfillment in the spiritual aspect of what you have wrote in full of the carnal aspect.

But what is the spiritual symbolic aspect of what stage of tribulation we are in.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,752
8,262
113
I was speaking of when in history?
Who are the 2 witnesses?
Satan's kingdom has yet to fall?
The book of Revelation is written to what audience? How would they have understood it?
At what point is a kingdom defeated? When it actually falls or when those in control of the kingdom no longer have power to keep all of its inhabitants?
Satan is the subject of Revelation? Or Christ? Kingdoms are the subject of Daniel or Ezekiel? Or Christ? The world is in view in Revelation or Israel?
You fail to understand that OT eschatology and the vast percentage of the book of Revelation revolves around.....

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE CERTAIN AND FUTURE REDEMPTION OF THE NATION ISRAEL, HIS WIFE!

This Israel who you think has been cast into the dustbin of doom forever back in 70AD.
And the entire NT is written for the Church.

Absolute hogwash. And screams of Biblical illiteracy and heresy.