The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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may God give you repentance... move on ...
... you need to confess your sin to God for your manipulation and mishandling of Scripture together with your unwarranted accusations against those who point out your error ...you do know who is the accuser, yes?
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The difference between the people in Romans 5:10 and the people in John 3:18 is plain.
The words "we were reconciled" in Romans 5:10 are translated from the Greek word katallassō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.
Reconciliation on the part of God to mankind took place before the foundation of the world. Before God created, formed, and made mankind, because He knew Adam and Eve would sin, He devised His most gracious and loving plan of salvation. That is how mankind was reconciled to God even before mankind ever existed. However, when Adam and Eve sinned, there was a change and mankind needed to be reconciled back to God.
Reconciliation on the part of man takes place at the time a person turns to God in faith ... at that point they are "reconciled" to God. Each person who does not reject God when God reaches out to him or her ... and God reaches out to every single person who has ever lived and who ever will live ... that person is the one who changes position and becomes reconciled back to God. He or she trusts and believes what God tells him or her and God then justifies and makes righteous. The person changes. It is not God Who changes ... it is mankind who changes when a person does not reject when God reaches out to him or her.
John 3:18 describes those who reject God even as He reaches out to them. They are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
Those who turn to God in faith are the ones who are reconciled to God.
There is only one sacrifice for sin which is acceptable to God. The sacrifice is wholly sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind. Those who reject the sacrifice have no other means. The Lord Jesus Chris is the one and only sacrifice which can take away sin.
Do you believe the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ is insufficient? Do you think that if the one who believes not at one point in his or her life ... if he or she believes later on ... that the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ is insufficient to cover him or her?brightfame52 said:
Those who continue in unbelief their whole lifetime and reject God's offering are the ones who shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him ... not because there is no offering for them ... or the offering on their behalf was insufficient ... but because they rejected that which was offered ... the only means in which a person can be justified.
You claim that "faith or believing in the Son" cannot be the difference. However, Scripture says the exact opposite of your claim:brightfame52 said:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In John 3:18, the reason for their condemnation is clearly given ... because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The "One Group Rom 5:10" reconciled is the group who does not reject that which God has provided.brightfame52 said:
The "other Jn 3:18,36 !" reaps the consequence of their unbelief ... their rejection of that which God has provided.
Quit rewriting Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture with your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error!
No one is "reconciled to God while enemies/unbelievers ! 45" because once a person believes, he or she is no longer any enemy or an unbeliever.brightfame52 said:
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nope ... not all believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit in OT times. what we have in our day and time is not the same as what Moses had in his day and time.
In our day and time do you believe God takes Holy Spirit from within a believer and distributes that to others ... that's what God did back in Moses' day:
Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
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24-25 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Jesus made clear that He had to go away in order for Him to send the Holy Spirit ... the Lord Jesus Christ had to come ... had to fulfill all the law and the prophets ... had to overcome the wicked one ... had to die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven before He could send that which was not available prior to His having ascended into heaven:ForestGreenCook said:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And Hebrews makes clear that OT believers died without having received the promise and that what we have is "better":
Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The Lord Jesus Christ received the promise of the Holy Spirit when He ascended up into Heaven:ForestGreenCook said:
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
The Lord Jesus Christ shed shed forth this, which ye now see and hear ... after Pentecost something changed from before Pentecost.
I do not believe it's a different Holy Spirit than what was evident in OT ... but there is a difference in how we are indwelt. We do not have to pray to God to ask Him not to take away the Holy Spirit from us (as David died in Psalm 51:11) ... we receive Holy Spirit from the Lord Jesus Christ as an internal reality and presence and He abides, remains within us, forever (John 14:16) ... we do not have Holy Spirit distributed from another believer to us (Numbers 11). From and after Day of Pentecost, when a person is born again, it is a new creation which is birthed within the person the moment he or she believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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what is stated in Scripture:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The "their" and the "us" in 2 Corinthians 5:19 does not refer to those who remain in unbelief their whole lifetime.brightfame52 said:
The "their" and the "us" in 2 Corinthians 5:19 refers to those who walk by faith (2 Cor 5:7) ... those who are in Christ (2 Cor 5:17).
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
The word "walk" in 2 Cor 5:7 is translated from the Greek word peripateō which means to conduct one's life, to order one's behavior, to behave, to make one's way, to live or pass one’s life.
Those who live their lives by faith are the ones who are no longer enemies of God. They are reconciled to God because they have believed what God has said. They did not reject God's provision for their sin ... they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
only born again believers are in Christ. There is no way for an unbeliever to be in Christ. The unbeliever has rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is no other way for mankind, brightfame52. The unbeliever who remains in unbelief his or her whole life will find him or herself cast into the lake of fire.
Idolatry is not "unbelief". Idolatry is belief in something other than God ... other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe in idols worship their idol instead of God ... and their idols can do nothing for them.brightfame52 said:
Deuteronomy 5:
6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
Those who worship idols have set their idols up in the place of God and we are to have no other gods before Him. God alone is preeminent ... God alone is above all.
Read the whole verse, brightfame52 ... and thou standest by faith.brightfame52 said:
Also keep in mind what is written just a couple of verses after verse 20:
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Those who were broken off because they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ, if they do not remain in unbelief, but believe in Him ... God is able to graff them in again.
We stand by faith.
A person who remains in unbelief his or her whole lifetime will find him or herself cast into the lake of fire ... even though the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ was sufficient to cover his or her sins. God has made provision for the sins of all mankind, all descendants of Adam ... that is why it is by grace through faith we are saved.
There is no other sacrifice for sin ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way. Those who reject God's provision for sin (i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ) will absolutely face the lake of fire ... not because God did not make provision for them, but because they rejected God's provision. They rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Unless God give you repentance, you will continue in your opposition to the truth.
you do know who is the accuser, yes?
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The world of Jn 1:29 their unbelief was taken away, that was part of their sin the Lamb took away.
He most certainly is. Regeneration comes from confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in the heart that God raised Him from the dead. John 20 was where the ten disciples first did that and Jesus breathed on them and said "Begin to receive ( labete: 2 aorist active imperative) the Holy Spirit." That is clearly where and when they received the Holy Spirit.
The gift of faith, as is the gift of sight, hearing, language etc. is given to all humans by God. Satan may steal these from individuals. But God gives them to all. Whenever anyone acts believing their action could be effective, they are exercising God-given faith.
Humans can experience faith, hope, love, joy, peace etc. before being born again. The message of the new birth is an earthly thing, according to Jesus in John 3.12. So, there is no reason a natural man cannot receive enough of the gospel sufficient to save him, before becoming spiritual and able tio receive the spiritual things Jesus alluded to in the same verse.
"If I have told you earthly things (O, natural man), and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
So, were these natural men able to receive spiritual gifts before being regenerated? Or must all that heard in their own language have been saved first?
Did Christ die for all sin except for the sin of unbelief?
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). When the Bible says that Christ was the sacrifice for all sin, it does not mean that all sin was automatically forgiven. It simply means that the offering to secure forgiveness for the whole world has been made; whether that offering actually results in the forgiveness of any individual is another matter, because the offering must be accepted by faith. Our way back to God has been prepared by Christ; the question now is, we will avail ourselves of the opportunity?
Christ died for all sin; that is, His sacrifice was completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the entire world. But forgiveness only comes to an individual when he or she repents and believes (see Mark 1:15). Until we accept (by faith) the provision of God in Christ, then we are still in our sins. Those who die in unbelief die in all their sin—they are unforgiven liars, murderers, adulterers, etc. (Revelation 21:8). Those who trust in Christ for their salvation do not die in sin; they die in Christ, with all sins forgiven. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1); without faith, we are condemned (John 3:18). Forgiveness is received through faith in Christ and comes with the promise of an eternity in heaven; lack of faith keeps us unforgiven and consigned to an eternity in hell.
In the Bible, belief, or faith, is more than just thinking something is a fact. Faith has more to do with trust and personal acceptance, deliberate acts of one’s will. So, in Scripture, the sin of unbelief is not merely ignorance; rather, it is willfully refusing God’s free gift of forgiveness of sin—including the sin of unbelief.
When God offers to forgive a man’s sin if he believes, logic dictates that his response cannot be, “No, I refuse to believe in You, but forgive my sins anyway.” Forgiveness is a conditional offer: if the required condition is met (faith), then the promised result occurs (forgiveness). Faith in Christ is how people rightly respond to God’s offer of salvation.
The Bible says much about the necessity of choosing faith in Christ and the results of unbelief. Christ longed to gather the sinful inhabitants of Jerusalem to Himself, yet they remained in their sin; Jesus’ condemnation places the onus directly on them: “You were not willing” (Luke 13:34). Their unbelief kept them away from Christ, their only salvation.
On the logic of requiring belief: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6)
On unbelief as an act of will, a deliberate choice: “Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in Him.” (John 12:37)
On why there is no excuse for unbelief: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” (Romans 1:18-20)
On the spiritual damage of unbelief: “What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!” (Romans 6:21) “Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways;” [but] “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (2 Corinthians 4: 2, 4)
On the justice of punishment for unbelief: “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19)
Finally, to be sure you know what a true believer must believe in order to be a forgiven Christian, here is a summary.
The Bible is clear that the only way to get into God’s perfect heaven is to be as perfect (pure and sinless), as God Himself (Matthew 5:20, 48; Luke 18:18–22). Even if you sin only once in your whole life, you have broken all of God’s law, just as breaking one link in a chain breaks the whole chain (James 2:10). God’s perfect justice means that every sin must be punished. That penalty is death in the form of eternal separation from God in hell (Exodus 32:33).
No human can meet God’s perfect standard, so without a supernatural Savior to rescue us, we are all lost sinners (Acts 15:10; Romans 3:9–23). God loves you and wants to rescue you from hell (John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9). So He sent his own perfect Son to take your punishment on Himself—his life for yours— paying your debt to God in full by dying on the cross, and forever freeing you from God’s righteous condemnation. Every one of your sins—past, present, and future—is forgiven if you choose to accept that gift of forgiveness by faith (believing and trusting God to keep His promise), when you repent (turn away from) your sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 11:18; 2 Corinthians 7:10) and ask Him to save you (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21). The blood of Jesus covers your sins so that God sees you as perfect as his own Son (Isaiah 53:4–6; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
The instant you accept God’s free gift by faith, you are changed: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: The old has gone, the new is here!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). You become God’s own beloved child (1 John 3:1), an eternal relationship that can never be broken (Romans 8:38–39; Ephesians 1:13–14). God as Father, Son and Spirit indwell you and make their “home” with you (John 14:17, 23). You can see why the Gospel of Christ is called Good News (Luke 2:10; Acts 5:42, 14:15)! In accepting this gift, you agree that you belong to God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). You are not your own because He bought (redeemed) you with the precious blood of his Son (1 Peter 1:18–19).
This amazing free gift of eternal salvation cannot be earned by any good thing you do (John 3:16; Romans 3:21–25; Ephesians 2:8–9). In fact, trying to earn it by your own efforts, as though you could please God enough to earn his acceptance, is harshly condemned in the Bible (Galatians 1:6–9). That is the difference between Christianity and virtually all the other religions in the world, with their manmade rules about what people must or must not do in the hopeless attempt to win God’s favor and gain eternal life for their souls.
Your salvation is free, a priceless gift from God more valuable than the entire world (Matthew 13:44; 16:26). And so the author of Hebrews asks, “How shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3). “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts” (Hebrews 3:7–8). “I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2).
https://www.gotquestions.org/sin-of-unbelief.html
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What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?
The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).
According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30).
The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day committed the unpardonable sin by accusing Jesus Christ (in person, on earth) of being demon-possessed. They had no excuse for such an action. They were not speaking out of ignorance or misunderstanding. The Pharisees knew that Jesus was the Messiah sent by God to save Israel. They knew the prophecies were being fulfilled. They saw Jesus’ wonderful works, and they heard His clear presentation of truth. Yet they deliberately chose to deny the truth and slander the Holy Spirit. Standing before the Light of the World, bathed in His glory, they defiantly closed their eyes and became willfully blind. Jesus pronounced that sin to be unforgivable.
The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, specific as it was to the Pharisees’ situation, cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, and no one can personally see Jesus perform a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ. The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ.
God has provided for our salvation in His Son (John 3:16). Forgiveness is found exclusively in Jesus (John 14:6). To reject the only Savior is to be left with no means of salvation; to reject the only pardon is, obviously, unpardonable.
Many people fear they have committed some sin that God cannot or will not forgive, and they feel there is no hope for them, no matter what they do. Satan would like nothing more than to keep people laboring under that misconception. God gives encouragement to the sinner who is convicted of his sin: “Come near to God and he will come near to you” (James 4:8). “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more” (Romans 5:20). And the testimony of Paul is proof positive that God can and will save anyone who comes to Him in faith (1 Timothy 1:12–17). If you are suffering under a load of guilt today, rest assured that you have not committed the unpardonable sin. God is waiting with open arms. Jesus’ promise is that “he is able to save completely those who come to God through him” (Hebrews 7:25). Our Lord will never fail. “Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD himself, is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation” (Isaiah 12:2).
https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html
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Faith as described in 1 Corinthians 12 is listed as a spiritual gift. And spiritual gifts are given by the Spirit severally as He wills.
What you have posted is accurate relative to the natural man, but does not apply to the spiritual man.
Sanctification (made to be holy) and salvation happened at the same time, for all of those that God gave to his Son, When Christ died on the cross and redeemed them from their sins. Eternal salvation was secured, by Christ, on the cross. Jesus said, while on the cross, "it is finished" meaning Jesus had accomplished what his Father sent him to do.
Sometime in the life of those he died for, God, by his grace, will give them a new spiritual birth, which delivers (saves them from being worldly minded), to being spiritually minded, which is a confirmation of their eternal deliverance (salvation) on the cross.
Salvation, according to Strong's concordance, means deliverance. One is eternal, and the other happens while the eternally saved (delivered) people live their live's here on earth.
God speaks of us as being glorified as well. But we aren't yet. God can speak of the things He does as completed before they transpire in space and time because He exists outside of them and because all He purposes will come to pass. So yes, we are sanctified. But we are daily being conformed to the image of God. This is what I was referring to. If you believe there is a better scriptural term for what I described I'm all ears. Well, not literally. It's a metaphor. I'm open to a more exact phraseology concerning this as well.
So, in what manner do you think the old testament saints were born again?