The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

Did Jesus Christ die for the sin of unbelief ?

The answer to that question is a most definitely Yes, if He died for you at all, for He did not die for every human being without exception ! Now from the outset it can proven that Christ died for the sin of unbelief because those He died for are by His death alone, reconciled to God, put into His Favor, even while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, if Christ did not die for their unbelief, how could they have been reconciled to God even while being enemies and unbelievers in their minds, while others in the same condition of being enemies and unbelievers are #1 Condemned already Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

#2 are having the wrath of God abiding on them Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now why the difference ? One group of enemies are reconciled to God, the other group of enemies are not, and are under condemnation and Gods Wrath ?

What made the difference ? It could not have been faith or believing in the Son, So the only rational, reasonable, and valid explanation for the difference is the Death of Christ for the One Group Rom 5:10 and not the other Jn 3:18,36 !

Thats because Christ's death pays for the sin of unbelief, otherwise those enemies could not have been reconciled to God while enemies/unbelievers ! 45

 

[brightfame52]

It does not say the natural man "cannot know or ask anything about spiritual things" in 1 Cor. 2:14.

This is the biblical process of conversion according to scripture. The natural man is soulish (psuchikos) and is living from His soul/mind (PsuchE) which has been programmed by his culture, his instincts and the demonic powers with all kinds of false ideas about reality and God. The objects of this man's faith are man-conceived ideas, man made technologies, flesh and blood persons, demon-sourced gnosis and powers. He cannot access the spiritual inheritance God has available through the Holy Spirit for His children to enjoy,m unless he is first born of the spirit through choosing to make the Father and Jesus Christ the objects of his faith.
How can God convert the soulish/natural man's confidence in the above idols to confidence in Jesus and God without violating thr man's free-desire/ free-will by merely unlaterally replacing that man's chosen desires/will with an imposed love for Him? We love God because He first loved us. God uses the testimony of His sacrificial love for the rebellious creatures whom He allowed to slaughter Him on the cross and to whom He afterwards still offers mercy, to dispel the lies of the devil that God is like fallen kings and acquires submission and loyalty by issuing threats and imposing punishment. In the cross we see that God wins allegiance not by using His almighty power to force submission. He uses foolish-to-the world divine power and wisdom of self-sacrificial love to reveal His true nature, which does not look anything like the kind of gods that Satan, demons and fallen men envision to be in their own broken images.

This revelation of the true nature of God draws men's attention away from their idols and onto this gracious, merciful and loving Saviour King in whom they begin to put trust. They hear and learn about the things of Jesus, the Holy Spirit bearing witness to the truth heard, ideally with signs following, and when they trust this message, and believe it, they receive the risen Christ. They are reckoned righteous by faith and are born again of the Holy Spirit. They receive a new spirit, which includes a new conscience that replaces the one that was perverted by the flesh, the world and the devil: perverted by appeasing their fleshly instincts when God through their conscience had been telling them to go against their instincts; and perverted by appeasing their cultural and philosophical expectations, when God through their conscience had been telling them to go against their philosophy's and culture's norms; and perverted by appeasing the demonic temptations to lording-over-others-power, when God through their conscience had been telling them to go against their lust for power over others. Into this new spirit, the Holy Spirit comes. They are no longer natural/soulish (psuchikos), because they now have the Holy Spirit. They have become babes in Christ to whom the Holy Spirit begins to open scripture showing them all the things in them concerning Christ and the inheritance of those in Him, and they start to learn from Him to discern good from evil and to choose the good.

As they submit to the Holy Spirit's guidance through their conscience and the Word, they mature and are capable of understanding more and more of the things of the Spirit, the things that the Holy Spirit brings with Him and He has for God's children to enjoy; the things that the natural/soulish man cannot receive because they are in the Holy Spirit, whom they do not have. If he co-operates with the Holy Spirit, the Christian's soul's false thoughts are gradually replaced with God's revealed truths taught him by the Holy Spirit. And so he becomes more and more Christ-like in thoughts, words and actions. The saint who has not been through this process of divesting themselves of the false thinking they inherited and absorbed before conversion remains largely controlled by those fallen attitudes and habits, i.e. is fleshly (sarkikos), and behaves badly.

The disciples did not need to have the Holy Spirit in them to understand who Jesus was and to trust in Him as the Messiah, saviour and Lord. They received the Holy Spirit AFTER confessing their faith in His risen lordship, not before. See John 20: 19-23 -

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The natural man cannot receive, know or understand the Spiritual things of God, in fact they are foolishness unto him, since they must be Spiritually discerned. However he doesnt have the Spirit, so he has no ability.. 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[brightfame52]

... move on ...
.

may God give you repentance for such a demeaning view of the efficasiousness of the Death of Christ, that it saved them He died for. Thats what this thread is all about.

 

[brightfame52]

@PaulThomson

Were the disciples born again before Jesus died and rose again?

yes of course they were. They received Him didnt they ? That means they had been born of God Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Prior to Day of Pentecost, believers were not indwelt with Holy Spirit as they were after Day of Pentecost and continuing to our day and time.

Moses was indwelt with the Holy Spirit,(Isaiah 63>11), as were all of the old testament saints. How do you think the old testament saints were born again if not by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John 3:7)

The Godhead consists of one God that has three different functions, so also, does the Holy Spirit have three different functions, the quickening Spirit, the revealing Spirit, and the comforting Spirit given at the day of Pentecost.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Prior to Day of Pentecost, believers were not indwelt with Holy Spirit as they were after Day of Pentecost and continuing to our day and time.

That's why Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7 that He had to go away ... so He could send the Holy Spirit in a much more dynamic and permanent manner than in the past. And in John 14:7, Jesus told His disciples ... I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

From gotquestions.org:

The Old Testament relates occasions in which the Spirit left someone, such as King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) or Samson (Judges 16:20). However, in those days the Holy Spirit worked differently than He does since the time Jesus rose from the dead. In the Old Testament, the Spirit is never said to “indwell” anyone; rather, He “came upon” people for a time to accomplish specific purposes (Judges 3:10; 1 Chronicles 12:18). The Holy Spirit inspired the prophets to proclaim truth to the people (Ezekiel 11:1–2). He instructed the leaders of Israel (1 Samuel 16:13). He inspired the writing of Scripture (2 Peter 1:21). But He did not indwell those people as He now does with believers in Christ.​

​

Before Christ’s finished work and ascension, the Holy Spirit came and went, but He no longer works that way. He does not come and go in the lives of believers today.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/lose-the-Holy-Spirit.html​

hmmm ... do you believe God takes away the Holy Spirit from the born again believer?
.

No, but he does revive the born again believer.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Were the disciples born again before Jesus died and rose again? John 20:20-23 says the apostles received the Holy Spirit only after the saw the risen Lord and believed He is the risen Lord.

And yet Peter recognised Him as the "the Christ, the Son of the Living God" before he received the Holy Spirit. Even demons could recognise Jesus as the Son of God, and later as the risen Son of God, without having the Holy Spirit. So, obviously, anyone can believe tht Jesus is Messiah, Lord and risen without yet having the Holy Spirit. Your gnostic sect is bewitching you.

I believe this event took place before the day of Pentecost . If you prove me wrong, I stand corrected. Read my Post #2125

 

[PaulThomson]

I believe this event took place before the day of Pentecost . If you prove me wrong, I stand corrected. Read my Post #2125

In John 20, the apostles believed Jesus was Lord and risen before Jesus breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit. So you idea that regeneration must come first before faith seems contradicted by that fact.

 

[brightfame52]

In John 20, the apostles believed Jesus was Lord and risen before Jesus breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit. So you idea that regeneration must come first before faith seems contradicted by that fact.

I have addressed that. Jesus isnt speaking about regeneration/the new birth In Jn 20

 

[PaulThomson]

The natural man cannot receive, know or understand the Spiritual things of God, in fact they are foolishness unto him, since they must be Spiritually discerned. However he doesnt have the Spirit, so he has no ability.. 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

As I said. We agree.

 

[brightfame52]

As I said. We agree.

No I dont agree with you

 

[ForestGreenCook]

In John 20, the apostles believed Jesus was Lord and risen before Jesus breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit. So you idea that regeneration must come first before faith seems contradicted by that fact.

The scriptures do not contradict. the natural man, before he has been born spiritually, that is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then he has no spiritual faith, because spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22).

 

[Cameron143]

The scriptures do not contradict. the natural man, before he has been born spiritually, that is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then he has no spiritual faith, because spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22).

There is a difference between faith that is produced by hearing and hearing by the word of God that is a result of grace in salvation and faith that a gift of the the Spirit as He gives severally to believers. The first is given to all who are saved. The latter may or may not be given to an individual believer, just as a gift of speaking is given to some believers and not to others.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is a difference between faith that is produced by hearing and hearing by the word of God that is a result of grace in salvation and faith that a gift of the the Spirit as He gives severally to believers. The first is given to all who are saved. The latter may or may not be given to an individual believer, just as a gift of speaking is given to some believers and not to others.

The natural man, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cannot poses spiritual faith.

Speaking is not a gift. A new born baby learns to mimic what they hear.

 

[Cameron143]

The natural man, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cannot poses spiritual faith.

Speaking is not a gift. A new born baby learns to mimic what they hear.

No problem with your first statement. As to speaking gifts, I wasn't referring to be being able to speak. I was speaking concerning gifts that involve speaking: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophesy, tongues, etc.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No problem with your first statement. As to speaking gifts, I wasn't referring to be being able to speak. I was speaking concerning gifts that involve speaking: word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophesy, tongues, etc.[/QUOTE

On the day of Pentecost the miracle was in the ears of those in the audience being able to hear Peter speak in their own language as there were people from several different regions who spoke different languages. This was a one time miracle that was given to the ears of the audience at Pentecost. This ability was given to the apostles and ceased after their deaths.

There are people today that have mastered the understanding of several different languages (tongues) and can speak to a group that understand's the person who speaks different languages when he speaks in their language.

This same man, who is educated to know different languages, cannot speak to a group of diverse languages and make every one of them understand him.

When a person who only knows how to speak the English language speaks to a group that dose not understand the English language, they have an interpreter that knows both the English language and the language of the audience to interpret.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is a difference between faith that is produced by hearing and hearing by the word of God that is a result of grace in salvation and faith that a gift of the the Spirit as He gives severally to believers. The first is given to all who are saved. The latter may or may not be given to an individual believer, just as a gift of speaking is given to some believers and not to others.

All believers of spiritual things have been born again and are saved (delivered) eternally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is a difference between faith that is produced by hearing and hearing by the word of God that is a result of grace in salvation and faith that a gift of the the Spirit as He gives severally to believers. The first is given to all who are saved. The latter may or may not be given to an individual believer, just as a gift of speaking is given to some believers and not to others.

Spiritual faith is only given to those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). The only faith that the natural man, that has not been born again, has is faith in mankind and their accomplishments.

 

[Cameron143]

Ok. No problem with what you said except there is nothing in the Bible that says that God cannot or will not have someone speak a particular language and have others hear it in their own tongue.
Also, the Bible has made allowance for someone speaking in an unknown language and another giving the interpretation. And there are other gifts given by the Spirit that requires speaking to exercise the gift.
Are you objecting to my characterization of the gifts as speaking gifts or something else?

 

[Cameron143]

All believers of spiritual things have been born again and are saved (delivered) eternally.

I don't disagree. And all believers by grace through faith are saved. But the gift of faith is not given to every believer anymore than the gift of prophecy is given to all. The Spirit gives as He wills.