What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?
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With all due respect, I think you are a dedicated student of the bible, and we do understand spiritual Israel differently.
Zeph 3, especially verses 11-13, Because of spiritual Israel's disobedience God blinded their eyes to the truth, except he left a remnant of them that would trust in the name of the Lord. Both the house of Jacob/Israel and the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel comprise all of the elect. (Mic 5:7-8)
Considering Rom 9:6-16, I believe Jacob, who's name has been changed to Israel represents spiritual Israel comprised of all of the elect, which is different from the nation of Israel. (Rev 5:9-10)
I believe in Jer 2:4, 8 and 11, that the house of Jacob and the house of Israel are both one of the same spiritual Israel.
I once heart someone say that the elect, when they are walking in the Spirit, they are the nicest people ever, but when they are walking in the flesh they can be the most nasty people ever. I believe that the scriptures tell us that.
I believe the scriptures to teach that there is the invisible church (those of the disobedient Jacob/Israel, who have been blinded to see the truth and are teaching false doctrines, and there is the visible church (the remnant of Jacob/Israel that have been revealed the truth of Christs doctrine. (Ezk 10, especially verse 10, the larger outer wheel representing the invisible church and the smaller wheel within the larger wheel being the visible church
I believe the two gates depicted in Matt 7 harmonizes with Ezk 10:10. The wide gate being the invisible church and the strait gate being the visible church.
Zeph 3, especially verses 11-13, Because of spiritual Israel's disobedience God blinded their eyes to the truth, except he left a remnant of them that would trust in the name of the Lord. Both the house of Jacob/Israel and the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel comprise all of the elect. (Mic 5:7-8)
Considering Rom 9:6-16, I believe Jacob, who's name has been changed to Israel represents spiritual Israel comprised of all of the elect, which is different from the nation of Israel. (Rev 5:9-10)
I believe in Jer 2:4, 8 and 11, that the house of Jacob and the house of Israel are both one of the same spiritual Israel.
I once heart someone say that the elect, when they are walking in the Spirit, they are the nicest people ever, but when they are walking in the flesh they can be the most nasty people ever. I believe that the scriptures tell us that.
I believe the scriptures to teach that there is the invisible church (those of the disobedient Jacob/Israel, who have been blinded to see the truth and are teaching false doctrines, and there is the visible church (the remnant of Jacob/Israel that have been revealed the truth of Christs doctrine. (Ezk 10, especially verse 10, the larger outer wheel representing the invisible church and the smaller wheel within the larger wheel being the visible church
I believe the two gates depicted in Matt 7 harmonizes with Ezk 10:10. The wide gate being the invisible church and the strait gate being the visible church.
If I may, I would like to interject something that might throw a different light on this disagreement.
Rogerg is correct in saying that believing does not deliver (save) a person eternally. You are also correct in saying that believing does deliver (save) a person, but that person has to be already born again.
According to Strong's concordance, Salvation=deliverance, Saved=delivered, and save=deliver. There is an eternal deliverance by the grace of God, and there are many deliverance's here on earth for those who have been born again by doing good works.
Each time that a born again person repents of a sin that they have committed, God delivers them from the results of that sin. and each time they do a good work, such as believing, praying, being kind to others, etc God delivers them.
If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal deliverance, the scriptures will tend to make you believe that eternal deliverance is achieved by your good works.
Rogerg is correct in saying that believing does not deliver (save) a person eternally. You are also correct in saying that believing does deliver (save) a person, but that person has to be already born again.
According to Strong's concordance, Salvation=deliverance, Saved=delivered, and save=deliver. There is an eternal deliverance by the grace of God, and there are many deliverance's here on earth for those who have been born again by doing good works.
Each time that a born again person repents of a sin that they have committed, God delivers them from the results of that sin. and each time they do a good work, such as believing, praying, being kind to others, etc God delivers them.
If you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal deliverance, the scriptures will tend to make you believe that eternal deliverance is achieved by your good works.
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But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
What's the context? Paul was explaining that human wisdom and intellect could never figure out the MYSTERY of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of pondering, reasoning or debating from the human mind/natural man would ever figure out Gods mystery plan of His Gospel. It had to be REVEALED. God had to wait until "it was finished" to reveal it to mankind. Why?
1 Cor 2:8~…which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
The natural man could not muster up enough intellectual prowess to see this mystery. So when "it was finished" the Spirit REVEALED the MYSTERY.
1 Cor 2:10~~ these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
Now the mystery is revealed. So ALL can see.
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
What's the context? Paul was explaining that human wisdom and intellect could never figure out the MYSTERY of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of pondering, reasoning or debating from the human mind/natural man would ever figure out Gods mystery plan of His Gospel. It had to be REVEALED. God had to wait until "it was finished" to reveal it to mankind. Why?
1 Cor 2:8~…which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
The natural man could not muster up enough intellectual prowess to see this mystery. So when "it was finished" the Spirit REVEALED the MYSTERY.
1 Cor 2:10~~ these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
Now the mystery is revealed. So ALL can see.
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
We often confuse Liberty and Ability
Adam had absolute liberty and also ability to do good. He had no more liberty to do good than has fallen man, but had complete ability which is totally absent in fallen man. With sin’s entrance man lost ability to do good, not liberty. Before the fall, man was at liberty to do either good or evil and he was able to do either. After the fall he remained free to do either good or evil, but was able to do only evil.
Adam had absolute liberty and also ability to do good. He had no more liberty to do good than has fallen man, but had complete ability which is totally absent in fallen man. With sin’s entrance man lost ability to do good, not liberty. Before the fall, man was at liberty to do either good or evil and he was able to do either. After the fall he remained free to do either good or evil, but was able to do only evil.
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If it is God's will that he wants everyone to be saved, then everyone WILL be saved (Dan 4:35).
2 Pet 3:9, in order to keep this verse in context, we have to determine who Peter is speaking to and it is fount in 2 Pet 1:1, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. To those that have God's promise of an inheritance of eternal life.
Peter even includes himself by using the word "us-ward" as he warns them to repent when they commit a sin that any of them might not perish=death=separate themselves from their fellowship with him.
The only righteousness that the born again child of God has is the imputed righteousness of Christ, mankind's righteousness is as filthy rags.
2 Pet 3:9, in order to keep this verse in context, we have to determine who Peter is speaking to and it is fount in 2 Pet 1:1, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. To those that have God's promise of an inheritance of eternal life.
Peter even includes himself by using the word "us-ward" as he warns them to repent when they commit a sin that any of them might not perish=death=separate themselves from their fellowship with him.
The only righteousness that the born again child of God has is the imputed righteousness of Christ, mankind's righteousness is as filthy rags.
No, not my job to know if everyone is saved, but neither am I Paul nor involved with the writing of the New Testament.
In my response I said we're given faith as a result of/with salvation, not faith then salvation. If I somehow
gave an impression otherwise, it was an inadvertent mistake caused by my lack of writing skills.
Thank you too, Kroogz, maybe again sometime in the future should something change for either of us.
In my response I said we're given faith as a result of/with salvation, not faith then salvation. If I somehow
gave an impression otherwise, it was an inadvertent mistake caused by my lack of writing skills.
Thank you too, Kroogz, maybe again sometime in the future should something change for either of us.
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Humans can be divided into two groups: the predestination group and the free choice group. Here’s the scripture that I believe is telling us so:
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly (free will group) and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven (predestination/chosen group), and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
Some of us are born with free will to choose—But, some of us are not. Some of us were chosen.
SOME FREE WILL SCRIPTURES:
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Isaiah 66:3 Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Joshua 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
SOME PREDESTINATION SCRIPTURES:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
………
Selah
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly (free will group) and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven (predestination/chosen group), and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
Some of us are born with free will to choose—But, some of us are not. Some of us were chosen.
SOME FREE WILL SCRIPTURES:
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Isaiah 66:3 Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Joshua 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
SOME PREDESTINATION SCRIPTURES:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
………
Selah
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The "US" is Paul and the apostles And now they reveal it to ALL men.
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
(Ephesians 3:1-9)
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
(Ephesians 3:1-9)
Because, even in being saved/born again, does not mean that they have come to full knowledge of it or Christ. That being saved, doesn't mean they woke up one morning knowing all spiritual doctrine. That learning occurs over a life time:
[Eph 4:11-14 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[Eph 4:11-14 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
