What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[BillyBob]

Is it the natural heart's desire to turn to God? NO, and it never will be unless God call us to Him and gives us a new heart.

Most often the call to place your trust in Christ takes place through hearing or reading God's word. It is not the fault of the gospel, nor of Christ offered therein, nor God, who calls men by the gospel that some refuse to come and be converted. The fault lies in themselves; some of whom reject the Word; others, thought they receive it, it makes no lasting impression on their heart. But some hear and obey. This our Savior teaches in the parable of the sower.

The fact that they hear and respond must be wholly ascribed to God, who, as He has chosen His own from eternity in Christ, so He calls them effectually in time, confers upon them faith and repentance, and rescues them from the power of darkness. The Spirit softens the hardened heart, and infuses new qualities into the will, which, though before was dead. Now we, like a good tree may bring forth the fruits of good actions. However, these good actions play no part in our salvation.

This act was not of ourselves, but a work of God only. No man may boast, it is a gift to God's chosen people.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Jesus would sound foolish if this only applied to the 'elect' since they
"Will Never perish", thus: "...ALL men every where Are Commanded

To Repent!", eh? Because Of Christ's Finished Work On The Cross!

 

[Kroogz]

Okay, it will probably be easier, Kroogz, if we start upstream at the head of the river, rather than of trying to navigate through each of its
tributaries individually upstream to get to its head (so to speak). Let's start with this so that we both are beginning at the same point: I know you believe that Jesus is the Saviour but what does that He is the Saviour really mean to you (given as He is the foundation of Christianity and of the gospel); that is, what specifically, in your opinion, does the Saviour bring to salvation of people? If we perceive Christ and His role differently, then it will be very difficult for us to communicate, and therefore, we will never be able to get the other pieces to fit.

That's a lot rogerg! The moment I trusted in Him, He saved me. That's probably our main problem. Faith is just a perception of something, it carries no intrinsic value(meritless/who can boast?) All the merit is in The Lord Jesus Christ. He is the author and the finisher of my salvation. And He gave me tremendous temporal(for His life through me) blessings and Grace to advance in His plan for me. I could fill pages but here are a few:
1.Eternal life and access to God.
2.eternal security.
3.His Holy Spirit. ( and I also believe we have the Son and the Father dwelling in us) Walking/filling of the Spirit.
4.Justification.
5.New creation.
6.His problem solving devices.
7.Faith.
8. Faith rest.
9.Personal purpose through His will.
10. Elected to His Highest and best/ service through Him.( Another point we disagree on Election is not salvation, it's service)
11. predestined plan ( another point. Not salvation. We are predestined to be conformed to His image after salvation.)
12. A secure foundation in Christ
13.Given a spiritual family.
14.Delivered from condemnation/wrath.
15. an Eternal inheritance.
16. Delivered from the kingdom of darkness.
17. transferred to His Kingdom.
18.Impersonal unconditional love and personal love.

And many more! He is my friend and my King.

 

[TrueChristian]

We are in the Lastdays and Jesus Christ is coming back very soon. The Word of God ( Bible ) always means what it says... God want everyone to be saved and no one to perish. But fact of the matter is that Most will perish because reject God and dont want to obey Him.......2 Peter 3: 9-10...and 1 John 5: 1-5

 

[rogerg]

That's a lot rogerg! The moment I trusted in Him, He saved me. That's probably our main problem. Faith is just a perception of something, it carries no intrinsic value(meritless/who can boast?) All the merit is in The Lord Jesus Christ. He is the author and the finisher of my salvation. And He gave me tremendous temporal(for His life through me) blessings and Grace to advance in His plan for me. I could fill pages but here are a few:

Thanks, Kroogz, interesting information. But let's look at this logically: if you first had to trust Him to be saved - that according to you, being a requirement of salvation- by satisfying it, you then caused your own salvation, which would then, without question, make you the saviour, and Christ not. IOW, you did something to cause your salvation, and had you not done it, you wouldn't have become saved. So, by doing it, or by not doing it, you entirely controlled the outcome as to whether you became saved or you didn't become saved, right? Doesn't that unequivocally make you the saviour, since the result was under your total control alone the entire time, with Christ just a fait accompli? However, to truly be the Saviour, wouldn't He have had to do the saving in its entirety, from beginning to end, or as you said, be "the author and finisher of your salvation" to include your trust, apart from, even in spite of, anything else, on the behalf of those whom He is saves? So, after mulling it over, if you would, please point out to me the logical flaw of that argument.
Regarding faith, I believe it occurs from the inside out, not from the outside in, because to have true faith, the heart must first be changed. I would say belief is a perception, which is driven from/by faith, but faith itself has substance, and it is evidence, so it has spiritual mass, which thereby must be the result of something given to someone and not conjured up. Observe:

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, to finish, I would state it in the reverse of you -that instead of "I trusted in Him, He saved me", I would say "He saved me, and I trusted Him".

 

[Magenta]

Neither was Adam. But Adam sinned. So sin cannot be blamed on the free-willed creature's nature.

Why not? Since it was in Adam's nature to sin. Otherwise, he could not have.

 

[Kroogz]

Thanks, Kroogz, interesting information. But let's look at this logically: if you first had to trust Him to be saved - that according to you, being a requirement of salvation- by satisfying it, you then caused your own salvation, which would then, without question, make you the saviour, and Christ not. IOW, you did something to cause your salvation, and had you not done it, you wouldn't have become saved. So, by doing it, or by not doing it, you entirely controlled the outcome as to whether you became saved or you didn't become saved, right? Doesn't that unequivocally make you the saviour, since the result was under your total control alone the entire time, with Christ just a fait accompli? However, to truly be the Saviour, wouldn't He have had to do the saving in its entirety, from beginning to end, or as you said, be "the author and finisher of your salvation" to include your trust, apart from, even in spite of, anything else, on the behalf of those whom He is saves? So, after mulling it over, if you would, please point out to me the logical flaw of that argument.
Regarding faith, I believe it occurs from the inside out, not from the outside in, because to have true faith, the heart must first be changed. I would say belief is a perception, which is driven from/by faith, but faith itself has substance, and it is evidence, so it has spiritual mass, which thereby must be the result of something given to someone and not conjured up. Observe:

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So, to finish, I would state it in the reverse of you -that instead of "I trusted in Him, He saved me", I would say "He saved me, and I trusted Him".

Thank you Sir.
I really don't know how to explain any clearer that faith has no intrinsic value? It doesn't cause salvation. The Lord does the work.

Example:
If I see a chair and it's weight limit is infinite. And I have faith that it will hold me. Does my faith add any value to the working of the chair? No. It was presented to me with it's infinite weight limit and I had faith in it. ALL the merit is in the chair. I didn't sit down in this chair, I just have faith in it's presentation to me. Faith has NO merit in and of itself. The merit is in the object(Christ.)

I don't think it is a logic flaw. I think it is a biblical flaw in the argument.

Paul told the jailer,"believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved....." He did not say, " I am really not certain if you will be elected for salvation or not. But if He does save you, then you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Believe AND you will be saved....

Acts 16:31
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Rom 10~~9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 10:13
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[PaulThomson]

Except for saying, unless there is some other clue as to duration within the context of the word; I have been trying to say the same thing, but you are wrong about tense.

Tense
1
: a distinction of form in a verb to express distinctions of time or duration of the action or state it denotes.

Why are there, at least 2 aorists in Greek then? The present has an aspect which a continuous aspect, while the perfect has a complete aspect.

The first aorist and second aorist are simply two different ways of forming an aorist from verb roots. the first aorist is formed from the present root e.g luO, by adding a prefix e- and a sigma suffix (-s- ) followed by the endings for person of -a, -as, -e, -amen, -ate, -an. so the first person aorist is elusa, the information conveyed being: i was loosing (at some point in time), or I am loosing (at some point in time), or I will be loosing (at some point in time). Depending on the context, this information will be conveyed into English by some other verbal structure that is less cumbersome and awkward.

The second aorist is formed from stems that are irregular, and need to be learned individually, like we hae irregular verb forms for some verbs, e.g. I kill, I killed, I have killed is the regular formation. I run, I ran, I have run, and I buy, I bought, I have bought are irregular.
In koine Greek we have lambanO I receive, and legO I say do not form the aorist as elambasso, but as labon and not as elexO, but as eipon and have no e- prefix nor sigma -s- suffix, and take the same endings for person as the imperfect -on, -es, -e, -omen, -ete, -on.

But the first and second aorist have no different sense from one another.

 

[PaulThomson]

if you first had to trust Him to be saved - that according to you, being a requirement of salvation-

Ergon (Work) means an act that requires effort. Faith is not a work because believing does not require effort. It is not an effort to grasp for to get something nor an effort expended to cling onto to keep something, but a surrendering to trust someone, which surrender saves us. Works that require effort follow this letting go, but do not save us. It is the letting go that saves us.

 

[PaulThomson]

Why not? Since it was in Adam's nature to sin. Otherwise, he could not have.

It was in Adam's nature to choose to accept deception and to be deceived into sin by choosing to misuse the very good but limited attributes God gave Him. But it was not in his very good nature that he must inexorably sin. Only the potential was there.

 

[rogerg]

Ergon (Work) means an act that requires effort. Faith is not a work because believing does not require effort. It is not an effort to grasp for to get something nor an effort expended to cling onto to keep something, but a surrendering to trust someone, which surrender saves us. Works that require effort follow this letting go, but do not save us. It is the letting go that saves us.

It requires mental and spiritual effort (work) if we are the ones who have to provide/produce it.
If faith is a requirement for salvation, then our mental effort would be required to generate it, thereby making it our work -
I would say that anything required for salvation, which is not given as a gift, would make the providing of it our work. Even if not physical in nature, we would still have to bring forth something from nothing thereby making it work, even be it only with ourselves. So I think logically speaking, there are only two possibilities: it is either provided by God as His gift, in which case it was His work, or by us in which case it is our work. There is no third alternative that I can see.
Although we disagree on the interpretation of John 6 27- 29 (which I am still pondering as time and energy permits), I think one way or the other, from someone or other, work is required for faith. Since I believe it God's work, I do not think that we are saved by our faith, but that it comes as a byproduct of salvation, not that it brings salvation. Instead, I believe we are saved by Christ's faith which He imputes to us as a gift, upon being born-again from salvation. From/by that faith, we believe in Christ.
Hope that doesn't sound like gobbledygook - it very early here and I just woke up.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

[rogerg]

Faith has NO merit in and of itself. The merit is in the object(Christ.)

You are correct, our faith does not cause salvation, and that is exactly the point I've been trying to make. However, Christ's
faith does cause salvation. Otherwise, if Christ's faith has no merit, why then are we told that His faith has righteousness?

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul told the jailer,"believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved....." He did not say, " I am really not certain if you will be elected for salvation or not. But if He does save you, then you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Believe AND you will be saved....

Because for the jailer to believe he first had to have been given faith. Paul, being God's servant, knew that the jailer had been given
that faith - that he was of God's elect - so Paul could then command him to believe.

Salvation can be perceived as occurring in two distinct phases: 1) when being placed by God under the law of the Spirit of life during
our lifetimes, and 2) the actual manifestation of salvation on the last day. Paul was referring to the later, not the former. The former
had to have already occurred for the jailer to have faith and to subsequently believe. When salvation is referred to in the future tense, that is what is meant.

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Look, I think we've reached an impasse regarding the differences of the most fundamental point of the Bible, that being the role of Christ as Saviour. As a result, in not being able to reconcile those differences, I don't think we should waste any more of our time and energy trying to convince the other of our different beliefs, which we agreed we should do before proceeding further, but now I don't believe possible. So, with no animosity, I suggest we should put a lid on it at this point.

 

[selahsays]

It requires mental and spiritual effort (work) if we are the ones who have to provide/produce it.
If faith is a requirement for salvation, then our mental effort would be required to generate it, thereby making it our work -
I would say that anything required for salvation, which is not given as a gift, would make the providing of it our work. Even if not physical in nature, we would still have to bring forth something from nothing thereby making it work, even be it only with ourselves. So I think logically speaking, there are only two possibilities: it is either provided by God as His gift, in which case it was His work, or by us in which case it is our work. There is no third alternative that I can see.
Although we disagree on the interpretation of John 6 27- 29 (which I am still pondering as time and energy permits), I think one way or the other, from someone or other, work is required for faith. Since I believe it God's work, I do not think that we are saved by our faith, but that it comes as a byproduct of salvation, not that it brings salvation. Instead, I believe we are saved by Christ's faith which He imputes to us as a gift, upon being born-again from salvation. From/by that faith, we believe in Christ.
Hope that doesn't sound like gobbledygook - it very early here and I just woke up.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

I think that Galatians 2:16 and Romans 4:9, which have to do with the Law, are in a different context than John 6:27-29. Let me put it down in context and let’s reason it out together:

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

- John 6:27-40 (KJV)

So the question is: Is belief a work? Regarding John 6:29, I say, “yes indeed!”

Here’s Spurgeon’s take:

A Plain Answer to an Important Enquiry

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”— John vi. 29.

NOTICE the connection, or you will miss the meaning of the words; for at first sight it looks as if our Saviour taught us that it is the work of God for us to believe on him. Now, that would be quite true; and it is very plainly taught in other parts of Scripture that faith is the work of God; but that is not the teaching in this particular instance, as will be very plain if you look at the context. First, our Saviour said to the people, “See how you labour after the bread of your bodies. You have been running all round the coast to find me in order that I might feed you again with loaves and fishes. Now,” says he, “let your labour run after something better. Labour not for the meat that perisheth, but for that which endureth to life eternal.” He gently rebukes them: “Do not spend all your strength in seeking after temporal good, but think about your immortal natures. Satisfy the hunger of your spirits, the better part of you.” They immediately answered, “You tell us to labour after the bread that does not perish. What shall we do that we might work the work of God and so obtain it?” Our translation fails to let us see that they used precisely the same word as the Saviour had done. He said “labour,” and they said, “What shall we do that we may labour this labour of God? What is it?” They took him at his word, and they put a question in accordance therewith.
When men begin to be aroused about spiritual things, they naturally cry, “What must we do to be saved? What must we do that we may work the work of God?” It is a faulty question, it is a question very much shaped by their ignorance and error. They suppose that there are works to be done, and merit to be earned, by doing and obeying a law, and so they put it in that shape— “What shall we do? What shall we work that we may work the work of God?” The Saviour did not chide them for the shape of the question. It was not the time to expect accuracy, but he gave them such truth as they could understand, and he replied, “You want to know what work you must do that shall be ‘the work of God,’ or a work pleasing to God. This then is ‘the work of God’: the work most pleasing to God of all the works that can be done by men, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” The teaching here is not that faith is wrought in us by God, which I have already said is a great truth, but it is this— that if men desire to work, the first and chief of all work is that they believe on Jesus Christ whom God hath sent. Does any man object to faith being called the work of man? If he does, I ask him wherefore he objects. It is true that faith is the gift of God, but this does not militate for a moment with the other truth that faith is the work of man: for it is and must be the act of man. No one in his senses can deny that. Will you venture to say that man does not believe? Then I venture to tell you that he who does not personally believe in Jesus is a lost man; and if there be such a thing as a faith which is not a man’s own act and deed it will not save him. The man must himself believe or perish: this is the plain doctrine of Scripture. Repentance is wrought in us by the Holy Ghost, but we must ourselves repent, or we never shall be saved. Faith is wrought in us by the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Ghost does not believe, or repent: these are a man’s own acts. With our hearts we believe unto righteousness. If we do not believe then we are not partakers of the promise which is given to those who do believe. Faith is, therefore, the work of man; and it is the chief of works, the work most pleasing to God, the most godlike work, or, as the text puts it, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

 

[Magenta]

It was in Adam's nature to choose to accept deception and to be deceived into sin by choosing to misuse the very good but limited attributes God gave Him. But it was not in his very good nature that he must inexorably sin. Only the potential was there.

Adam was not deceived. He chose to sin. Saying it was not in his nature to choose to sin would be wrong.

 

[rogerg]

So the question is: Is belief a work? Regarding John 6:29, I say, “yes indeed!”

Sorry selahsays, I appreciate that you replied, but strongly disagree. I think that no works by man for salvation - no matter how slight nor great - are pleasing to the Faither, to include the producing one's faith/belief. Just the opposite in fact - in believing that, one in effect, calls God a liar because He clearly informed mankind that He has brought-forth a Saviour and attested to Him with many great miracles. For a Saviour to be the Saviour, He must have accomplished everything that pertains to providing eternal life with nothing left out of it for those He saves, or He just simply could not be the Saviour. But the Bible makes abundantly and unquestionably clear that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour fully and completely, so with that proclamation, we can, and should, rest completely in Him and in His perfect work. I believe that those saved, are saved, solely through God's exceedingly great mercy and grace, and by nothing they contribute to it: they are but the blessed the recipients of it.

I guess it all comes down to how one perceives the Saviour.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[1Jo 5:10 KJV] 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[7thMoon]

But the first and second aorist have no different sense from one another.

You can believe that all you want.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

True, not all are of the Election; some are of the Free Will group that will choose (or not choose) Christ upon hearing the Gospel.

For my own studying, could you give me some scriptures referring to "the free will group"?

 

[Ted01]

It seems to me that Scriptures say both sides are true... some Scripture talks about election and predestination, God calling and choosing; other Scripture talks about us needing to believe, accept, and receive.
It might seem paradoxical, but both aspects are there, equally, in Scripture.

 

[BillyBob]

Why not? Since it was in Adam's nature to sin. Otherwise, he could not have.

I do not believe it was Adam's nature to sin. In fact, he was very upright! But, he truly had the choice to sin or not to sin, and he failed the test. We who are born in sin do not have a choice. We are conceived in sin, children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil. Until we are given a new heart we cannot please God!

 

[rogerg]

It seems to me that Scriptures say both sides are true... some Scripture talks about election and predestination, God calling and choosing; other Scripture talks about us needing to believe, accept, and receive.
It might seem paradoxical, but both aspects are there, equally, in Scripture.

Needing to believe is not a contradiction of election, but fully conforms to it. The question then is how is how and when does one
manifest belief? I say it comes as a result, or byproduct, of salvation, but is not the cause of it - it being a gift from God freely given to those whom He has chosen to salvation.

 

[Ted01]

Needing to believe is not a contradiction of election, but fully conforms to it. The question then is how is how and when does one
manifest belief? I say it comes as a result, or byproduct, of salvation, but is not the cause of it - it being a gift from God freely given to those whom He has chosen to salvation.

I'm not sure that I could agree with that idea. There too many places in scripture that say we must believe in order to be saved... in that order, which excludes the idea that we could be saved prior to believing.
I'm sorry, it's just not there in scripture.