What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[Kroogz]

It is not a question of privilege nor of opportunity. Were it, it would then be dependent upon ourselves to do what is necessary to achieve salvation, and no one would be able to satisfy that requirement. Thankfully, salvation is only as a gift through Christ though undeserved. God, being an exceedingly merciful and gracious God, has chosen to save certain people who He bestows it on based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure alone. No one deserves it. All, as in an all all, deserve His judgement and punishment, not His mercy. Being God, and the one who brought salvation to fruition, He is under no compulsion whatsoever to justify His choices
to us, as to whom He chose, and as to why He chose them.
We all (everyone) comes into this life dead in sin and remains so until and unless saved. Therefore, it is not within anyone's power
to avail themselves of any "opportunity" as a choice to be made. Christ alone is the Saviour and man is not.

IMO, we have to do some pretty wild biblical gymnastics and mental gymnastics to not see that Christ offers salvation to all men.

And if God is just willy nilly picking people for salvation through His Sovereignty, and not through His Justice/righteousness. We really aren't secure. He could willy nilly un-elect us at His bidding at any time.

Luke 3:6
And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 

[rogerg]

IMO, we have to do some pretty wild biblical gymnastics and mental gymnastics to not see that Christ offers salvation to all men.

And if God is just willy nilly picking people for salvation through His Sovereignty, and not through His Justice/righteousness. We really aren't secure. He could willy nilly un-elect us at His bidding at any time.

Those saved are saved by what Christ did, not by what they do or not do. Therefore, because it is by Christ, those who become saved cannot be un-saved.

To understand the intent of the verses you provided, other verses must be factored in to gain complete understanding
as to who is in view in them and why.

 

[7thMoon]

Curious. Where do you get 2 aorists from? From my studies, I see it the way Paul is describing. The aorist points at a moment in time. The duration was a moment. Most of the time we can see through the moods when it has happened(usually how it's used) or whether it will or not.

There are 2 aorist in all my known "basic" Greek grammar books. This I didn't discover. If they aren't then the Imperfect is the actual 2nd Aorist always. Scholars like to separate the 2nd and the imperfect into contexts, but their lettering is the same for the indicative mood.

The aorist implies noncontinuous and noncomplete, hence aorist implies in its lexical rendering-- indefinite. Moods or I like to say modes are just the nature of the verb. Was it a probability subjunctive, an event indicative, command imperative, or wish opatative. I think those are all the modes. What complicates everything is each mode tends to have person, number and voice. Buying a book helps.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, since everything in His word is for a small specific group. And "all" or 'Any' don't really mean all encompassing.

What specific,small group is this for?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

The scriptures are plain that the all men encompass all mankind in this verse, but many (not all) were made righteous(Rom 5:19)

 

[Kroogz]

To understand the intent of the verses you provided, other verses must be factored in to gain complete understanding as to who is in view in them and why.

Yet, it took one verse for you to understand that all are condemned. Because it's a clear understandable verse.

These don't get much clearer and they build on each other:

Luke 3:6
And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, since everything in His word is for a small specific group. And "all" or 'Any' don't really mean all encompassing.

What specific,small group is this for

If you will keep the scriptures in context, they will tell you.

 

[rogerg]

Yet, it took one verse for you to understand that all are condemned. Because it's a clear understandable verse.

These don't get much clearer and they build on each other:

Luke 3:6
And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

So, are you saying based upon Romans 5:18, that everyone, as in everyone ever born, will inherit eternal life ?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sorry, ForestGreenCook, I know I said I would try to reply to your questions today, but I just don't seem to be
able to muster the same mental energy that I once was able to

I know all about declining mental energy, and also about declining physical energy, as I am 89 years old, ha.

 

[selahsays]

No. Did you read 1: 3 & 4? Observe the "all things that unto life" part of 1:3

These too:

[2Pe 1:3-4 KJV]
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hello, Roger … You are absolutely right. I was in a big hurry early this morning and didn’t take the time to read carefully. Please forgive me. These verses below are certainly directed to the Elect.

- 2 Peter 1:1-4, 10-11 (KJV) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[BillyBob]

I agree!

It is not a question of privilege nor of opportunity. Were it, it would then be dependent upon ourselves to do what is necessary to achieve salvation, and no one would be able to satisfy that requirement. Thankfully, salvation is only as a gift through Christ though undeserved. God, being an exceedingly merciful and gracious God, has chosen to save certain people who He bestows it on based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure alone. No one deserves it. All, as in an all all, deserve His judgement and punishment, not His mercy. Being God, and the one who brought salvation to fruition, He is under no compulsion whatsoever to justify His choices
to us, as to whom He chose, and as to why He chose them.
We all (everyone) comes into this life dead in sin and remains so until and unless saved. Therefore, it is not within anyone's power
to avail themselves of any "opportunity" as a choice to be made. Christ alone is the Saviour and man is not.

This act was not of ourselves, but a work of God only. No man may boast, it is a gift to God's chosen people.

What happens to those who do not respond to this gift? They are not God's elect. [John 10:27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. God is under no obligation to confer this grace upon any! No, how can He be indebted to one who has nothing of his own but sin and falsehood?

The manner of this operation cannot be fully comprehended by believers in this life. Nevertheless, they are satisfied to know and experience that by the grace of God they are enabled to believe with the heart and to love their Savior. At this time, We see through the glass dimly.

 

[Kroogz]

So, are you saying based upon Romans 5:18, that everyone, as in everyone ever born, will inherit eternal life ?

We both know that is not true.

But off of that verse we can build a sound doctrine.

All men were condemned through Adam, and through The Lord Jesus Christ all men have opportunity at salvation.

Do you believe Christ died for the whole world? Well, I do. He died for the sins of every single man and woman ever born or will be born. THAT is why all men have access to the Lord Jesus Christ. UNBELIEF is what people go to LoF for. Sins are paid for in full.

Do a study on people going to the LoF for their sins. You won't find it. What we find is they go to the LoF according to their UNBELIEF and DEEDS.....human good.

 

[selahsays]

The scriptures are plain that the all men encompass all mankind in this verse, but many (not all) were made righteous(Rom 5:19)

True, not all are of the Election; some are of the Free Will group that will choose (or not choose) Christ upon hearing the Gospel.

 

[rogerg]

We both know that is not true.

But off of that verse we can build a sound doctrine.

All men were condemned through Adam, and through The Lord Jesus Christ all men have opportunity at salvation.

Do you believe Christ died for the whole world? Well, I do. He died for the sins of every single man and woman ever born or will be born. THAT is why all men have access to the Lord Jesus Christ. UNBELIEF is what people go to LoF for. Sins are paid for in full.

Do a study on people going to the LoF for their sins. You won't find it. What we find is they go to the LoF according to their UNBELIEF and DEEDS.....human good.

Wait - but in so doing, you needed to look to other verses for a complete understanding. So, that verse then didn't and wasn't intended to stand on its own, right?

No, I don't believe Christ died for this current world. Had he, then everyone in it must be saved, there is no other
option, because by that, there can be no judgment for sin levy against anyone.

[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Not familiar with "LoF"?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Precious friends, I really do wish to be encouraged and edified by
"carefully reading everything" but there are three obstacles to this,
as to us simpletons In Christ:

1) This kind of complex grammar and language expertise example:

"...Do not keep on making an effort/stop making the effort (mE ergazestE:
present middle imperative) for the perishing (ho apollumenEn: present
middle participle) food, but for the food enduring (menousan: present
active participle) into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (dosei:
future active indicative) to you. For God the Father, confirms (esphragisev:
aorist Active indicative) Him. [as the truth-binger]”..., along with

2) The foreign [original ] language { Hebrew and Greek } scholarship,
example:

"the Ελληνικά letter “theta” (Θ) can easily be mistaken for the​

English letter “T,” while the לְהִתְבַּשֵׁל letter “samekh” (ס) can be​

confused with the English letter “S.”" , and:​

3) The "Calling on the Correct foreign Name Of God [ disagreeing with each
other, is it yhvh, yhwh, yehovah, yehuvah, yeshua, yehoshua, yehovashua, or
hamiash meshiamach? etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... ]
or you cannot be saved" judgmentalism group...

...are simply not very encouraging or edifying, but, are just simply:

Really confusing

We simpletons would Much Rather Prefer "The Simplicity Of Christ!" ♫ 😇 ↑

Just sayin, and now you all can Carry On, and I will head to the back
of the class ( so's I can sneak out the door )

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve ​

through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted ​

from The Simplicity That Is In Christ." (2Co 11:3)​

​

Amen.

 

[Kroogz]

Wait - but in so doing, you needed to look to other verses for a complete understanding. So, that verse then didn't and wasn't intended to stand on its own, right?

We don't disagree on the fact that through Adam all are condemned. So, no need to further support that. So back to what I posted. If all are condemned through Adam, All have access through Christ for salvation.

Luke 3:6
And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

Acts 2:21
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

YOUR context disregards all these clear verses that salvation is offered to ALL MANKIND.

No, I don't believe Christ died for this current world. Had he, then everyone in it must be saved, there is no other option, because by that, there can be no judgment for sin levy against anyone.

Well He did. And I know you know the verses. You are denying the "whole world" or "all" or "whosoever" or "anyone" or everybody" as being all encompassing in many clear unambiguous verses....John 3:16 does it all alone.

And the option is ,they go to the lake of fire(LoF) because of their unbelief. And if you do a study on this, the great white throne judgement gives us a picture of a judge in a court room scene and the unbeliever gets to "plead" their case, hence judged by their deeds(human good.)....All sin is paid for.

And no disrespect Sir, my capitols are for emphasis. I am not 'yelling.'

 

[rogerg]

Hello, Roger … You are absolutely right. I was in a big hurry early this morning and didn’t take the time to read carefully. Please forgive me. These verses below are certainly directed to the Elect.

No problem, selahsays and no apology necessary.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

True, that is kind of a tricky verse. But what I think it is saying (if I can make this intelligible), is Peter is teaching that if, from within ourselves, we have a true desire to do those things mentioned in the verses prior to this one, and should we by that desire remain diligent in the doing of them, then by that, we can be certain that our calling and election are sure; however, I don't think it works in the reverse: that by the doing of them, that we can have sureness that we have made ourselves of the called/ elected - whew, hope I got that right!

 

[rogerg]

We don't disagree on the fact that through Adam all are condemned. So, no need to further support that. So back to what I posted. If all are condemned through Adam, All have access through Christ for salvation.

Okay, it will probably be easier, Kroogz, if we start upstream at the head of the river, rather than of trying to navigate through each of its
tributaries individually upstream to get to its head (so to speak). Let's start with this so that we both are beginning at the same point: I know you believe that Jesus is the Saviour but what does that He is the Saviour really mean to you (given as He is the foundation of Christianity and of the gospel); that is, what specifically, in your opinion, does the Saviour bring to salvation of people? If we perceive Christ and His role differently, then it will be very difficult for us to communicate, and therefore, we will never be able to get the other pieces to fit.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

...the fact that God has made is possible for all people to get saved. This doesn't mean all will be saved, but it does mean anybody could get saved.

all these clear verses that salvation is offered to ALL MANKIND.

Amen! and Amen!! Cannot understand why one would deny This Truth, as:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but​

Now Commandeth all men every where to repent"​

(Acts 17:30)​

​

Therefore, makes no sense to says this is applicable only to the 'elect',
since they 'Will repent' anyway, Correct? Must be What God Meant:

​

"ALL men every where", No exceptions, right?​

Clarifies this previous command?:

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."​

(Luke 13:5)​

Jesus would sound foolish if this only applied to the 'elect' since they
"Will Never perish", thus: "...ALL men every where Are Commanded

To Repent!", eh? Because Of Christ's Finished Work On The Cross!​

Amen.

 

[rogerg]

I know all about declining mental energy, and also about declining physical energy, as I am 89 years old, ha.

Appreciate that, ForestGreenCook, and I'm not that far behind you. Mentally, you are as good or better than most on this site.

 

[rogerg]

I know all about declining mental energy, and also about declining physical energy, as I am 89 years old, ha.

Couldn't locate your original post- the one where you asked me these questions so I thought that I'd use this one for
convivence. I don't want to keep you waiting on me, so I thought I'd post to you what I have and add to it later - its making me
considered things I haven't thought about before, so before it's still WIP - read it with that in mind.
I think that you will find some differences with the way we perceive certain things - plus I may end-up revising some of it
as I continue researching.

I think we might see spiritual Israel a little differently, ForestGreenCook. I perceive it as being a symbolic spiritual nation comprised, of, and only of, the saved. There would therefore be no remnant to remove from it.

In Jer 2:4, I believe that God's comments were exclusively directed to the earthly Israel, not spiritual Israel. I think that true because of what was said in Jer 2:8 and 2:11. The condemnation of those verses could never be levied against spiritual Israel because spiritual Israel, in being the spiritual nation of the saved, would/could never be guilty of those things.

[Jer 2:8 KJV] 8 The priests said not, Where [is] the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after [things that] do not profit.
[Jer 2:11 KJV] 11 Hath a nation changed [their] gods, which [are] yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for [that which] doth not profit.

[Eze 6:2, 8 KJV] 2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, ... 8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have [some] that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

[Eze 14:22 KJV] 22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, [both] sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, [even] concerning all that I have brought upon it.

[Eze 16:3 KJV] 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity [is] of the land of Canaan; thy father [was] an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

[Eze 16:32, 38 KJV] 32 [But as] a wife that committeth adultery, [which] taketh strangers instead of her husband! ...

38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

[Eze 20:38 KJV] 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

[Eze 20:39 KJV] 39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter [also], if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

[Eze 20:38 KJV] 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

[Eze 16:3 KJV] 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity [is] of the land of Canaan; thy father [was] an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

[Eze 16:32, 38 KJV] 32 [But as] a wife that committeth adultery, [which] taketh
strangers instead of her husband! ...

Zep 3:11 - 14, is a little tricky. I believe that God structured those verses as though He were speaking to a living national organism or structure - that God was telling Israel He would eventually purge out of it the non-elect/unsaved so that it would only consist of the elect/saved, making spiritual Israel, Israel - from a metaphorical salvation standpoint, it will represent one nation - but that would occur later - and those already in it, would become the remnant (remember, the phrase “spiritual Israel” is not actually found in the Bible as far as I can see, but a term we use for distinction, for the sake of convenience). Earthly Israel, though still physically existing until the end of time, from a husband/wife spiritual standpoint, would no longer fill that role for God: Israel would have no special spiritual status with Him but only to be the conduit through which would He accomplish His promised salvation, along with any other remaining promises from God’s earthly covenant with them, all of the details of which, I am presently unsure.

I believe the scriptures to teach that disobedient Israel/Jacob who were blinded will be grafted back into the tree, that is, they that are part of spiritual Israel/Jacob, because all Israel is not of Jacob/Israel. ((Rom 9:6).

Ultimately, I don’t believe that any special grouping of people, by their belonging to any grouping of people, will make them of spiritual Israel. While the elect span across all human peoples, God's election, since it occurs on a person-by-person basis, invalidates all other earthly categorizations as far as salvation is concerned, with only germane point being whether or not someone is elect - everything else falls by the wayside. If they were so designated by God, then they will become saved regardless of any other factors; if they weren't, then they will never be saved regardless of any other factors: all else became irrelevant.

More to come later.