What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[rogerg]

If Jacob, whose name God changed to be called Israel, represents spiritual Israel, Then, according to Jeremiah 2:4, would not spiritual Israel be the ones that were backsliding?

No - Jacob's name was changed, but earthly Israel was given the earthly (but not the spiritual) covenant, and with that covenant, marriage. It is that marriage which God dissolved. God's relationship with spiritual Israel on the other hand, is eternal because it is solely based upon Christ, not man so is the marriage eternal also.

Would you agree that Jacob is one of the elect? Rom 8:33-39, nothing will separate his elect from the love of God.

Yes, I would agree with that.

When the born again elect of God commits a sin we separate ourselves from fellowship with God until we repent. Does God divorce us each time we commit adultery with the world?

No, God does not divorce us, period - that would be impossible. When we are born-again all past spiritual sins are purged through Christ, and future sin not assessed because we are henceforth under grace and not law, so for those born again, it is impossible for them to be guilty of spiritual adultery, especially since adultery is the worship of other gods, which a born-again believer, because they are born-again with the Holy Spirit indwelling them would never do. This is not to say that God does not chastise us when we commit earthly sin or do things that are not God glorifying, because the Bible makes clear that He does so, and that chastisement is most unpleasant and continuing for extremely long time, increasing exponentially with every reoccurrence. It will soon reach a point of diminishing returns where the punishment will greatly outweigh any enjoyment, and so we will stop.

[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[Heb 12:5-8 KJV]
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[rogerg]

Referring back to my post #510, Can you explain your view of the difference between the spiritual house of Jacob/Israel and the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel?

What do you think it is?

 

[PaulThomson]

It does say that belief is a work. The below verse clearly tells us that belief is both a work and that it is God's work alone to accomplish within us....
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Maybe, or maybe not, rogerg.

The context of the verse you cited, which happens to be out of step with several other NT texts if one interprets it your way, may be understood differently so as to fit with those other NT texts.

The crowds had noticed that Jesus was no longer on the side of the lake where He had fed he five thousand, and so had taken to boats and on foot to find Him on the Capernaum side of the lake (John 6:22-24. Jesus noted the effort they had expended to track him down, and commented that they were going through the effort/work/labour of seeking Him because they saw Him as a source of physical bread, not because He was the source of spiritual bread. (John 6:25-26) He exhorts them that they should not expend their efforts/work/;labour for bread that perishes, but rather put their efforts/work/labour into finding the bread that endure to aeonous life, which is the word of God Jesus is sharing with them. (John 6:27)

It is then that they ask Jesus, "What must we do to be doing the effort/labour/works of God?" (John 6:28))

And to this Jesus answers, "This is the work of God so that (hina) you may believe in Him whom He has sent." John 6:29)
"This" is referring back to what Jesus has just said was the effort/work/labour they should be doing, namely exerting themselves to find and listen to the word of God. That work will not save them, but it will bring them to the One and the truth that can save them, because "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The work is not believing to be saved, you see. It is making anb effort to put oneself in a position to hear God's word. Then, if one beliv=eves it, one will be saved.

So, faith/believing is not being identified as the work of God here, nor as the work of men. But seeking God's word in order to hear His word (v. 27) is identified as the work of God mentioned in John 6:29.

Hope this helps. Grace and peace.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No - Jacob's name was changed, but earthly Israel was given the earthly (but not the spiritual) covenant, and with that covenant, marriage. It is that marriage which God dissolved. God's relationship with spiritual Israel on the other hand, is eternal because it is solely based upon Christ, not man so is the marriage eternal also.



Yes, I would agree with that.



No, God does not divorce us, period - that would be impossible. When we are born-again all past spiritual sins are purged through Christ, and future sin not assessed because we are henceforth under grace and not law, so for those born again, it is impossible for them to be guilty of spiritual adultery, especially since adultery is the worship of other gods, which a born-again believer, because they are born-again with the Holy Spirit indwelling them would never do. This is not to say that God does not chastise us when we commit earthly sin or do things that are not God glorifying, because the Bible makes clear that He does so, and that chastisement is most unpleasant and continuing for extremely long time, increasing exponentially with every reoccurrence. It will soon reach a point of diminishing returns where the punishment will greatly outweigh any enjoyment, and so we will stop.

[Heb 1:3 KJV]
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[Heb 12:5-8 KJV]
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If I am understanding you right, you are saying that you have come to a point that you no more sin? How then do you interpret 1 John 1:8-10?

What do you think it is?

What do you think it is?

Spiritual Israel/Jacob is the elect of God. Spiritual Israel/Jacob in Jer 2:4 turned away from God by their disobedience, except for the remnant of spiritual Israel/Jacob that God took from the midst of spiritual Israel/Jacob, (Zeph 3:11-14).

The remnant is only a small part of the spiritual house of Jacob/Israel who have been revealed the truths of Christ's doctrine by the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of them. (Rom 11)

I believe the scriptures to teach that disobedient Israel/Jacob who were blinded will be grafted back into the tree, that is, they that are part of spiritual Israel/Jacob, because all Israel is not of Jacob/Israel. ((Rom 9:6).

 

[rogerg]

And to this Jesus answers, "This is the work of God so that (hina) you may believe in Him whom He has sent." John 6:29)
"This" is referring back to what Jesus has just said was the effort/work/labour they should be doing, namely exerting themselves to find and listen to the word of God. That work will not save them, but it will bring them to the One and the truth that can save them, because "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The work is not believing to be saved, you see. It is making anb effort to put oneself in a position to hear God's word. Then, if one beliv=eves it, one will be saved.

So, faith/believing is not being identified as the work of God here, nor as the work of men. But seeking God's word in order to hear His word (v. 27) is identified as the work of God mentioned in John 6:29.

Thank you for your input, but no, I don't think so. Notice that in the verse we are told that Jesus "answered". By answering, it means Jesus was specifically directing His reply to their immediately asked prior question (v28) - because that question, was the only question asked, and therefore, could not pertain to anything before that. Basically, it was question asked, question answered. However, Jesus did use it as an opportunity for Him to demonstrate characteristics of faith - that it is God's work, and He that must give it.
So, to consider His reply as being a backwards reference in some way to something else, is not supported by what is in v29, and would therefore be an incorrect interpretation of the verse, I believe.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If we read it closely at this verse, we can see that it says the same thing.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We can know that to obtain belief is a work because if a requirement for salvation, or from salvation, that whoever has provided it, has worked, whether it be by Christ who gives His faith as a gift, or instead, by someone else who produces it - either way, a work.

Regarding Romans 10:17, notice that the "cometh" was added by the translators and isn't in the original text.
What the verse is saying is that faith, Christ's faith, is already present within those saved through becoming born-again, and while already present, its presence is manifested/activated into their awareness through the spiritual hearing of the gospel, which hearing, was given to them through salvation/being born again, and thereby, the doctrine of faith becomes known to them.

[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is given by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only indwells only those born-again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[rogerg]

If I am understanding you right, you are saying that you have come to a point that you no more sin? How then do you interpret 1 John 1:8-10?

Notice that the verse says, "if we say". If we say that about ourselves then our sin remains; that is, if we believe that we have removed sin from ourselves, sin remains. But, we do not say that. Instead, it is the Bible that says that about us - that through Christ, we have no sin.

[1Jo 1:8 KJV] 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. The Bible tells us so in the following verse:

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We are under grace, not law. Where there is no law, sin cannot exist because it cannot be assessed: without law, there is no standard for the measurement or assessment of sin:

[Rom 7:8 KJV] 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

Have to stop for now - wife needs laptop. Will finish when I can - sorry.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

Chuckle!!!! It means that (drum roll): God desires all people to be saved.

That seems clear enough - AND God provided the means for that to happen when Jesus made the perfect SIN OFFERING on the cross for us. (Isa 53:10,11)

 

[Cameron143]

Chuckle!!!! It means that (drum roll): God desires all people to be saved.

That seems clear enough - AND God provided the means for that to happen when Jesus made the perfect SIN OFFERING on the cross for us. (Isa 53:10,11)

I appreciate your response. Could God still be said to desire all people to be saved and not have sent Christ?

 

[7thMoon]

Because as the Bible so tells us that Christ is the Saviour and that man is not. Therefore, I do not boast of myself, but of Christ alone as Saviour. We are told that those who perform works of any kind for salvation, are not under God's grace but under His wrath. To believe that one's works can affect their salvation is to diminish the works of Christ who already has perfectly achieved all on behalf of those He saves. That He did so, means that those saved can do nothing else for it. Therefore, should anyone truly that believe they can complete it, or add to it, would mean that it has not yet been given to them.
What do you understand Christ as Saviour to mean?

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

I appreciate your response. Could God still be said to desire all people to be saved and not have sent Christ?

Yes, and not have sent a final messiah.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I appreciate your response. Could God still be said to desire all people to be saved and not have sent Christ?

Since the ONLY WAY POSSIBLE for anybody to be saved depends on Jesus' SIN OFFERING, then NO.

 

[Magenta]

God desires all people to be saved, but he doesn't save everyone. There must be a
good reason, but he hasn't revealed it to us. Thus, it's a mystery that we can't solve.

Hebrews 11:6

 

[rogerg]

Hebrews 11:6

Without Christ's faith, that is: His faith alone pleased the Father. By His faith, we believe, and because of that belief, we earnestly seek Him.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[PaulThomson]

Thank you for your input, but no, I don't think so. Notice that in the verse we are told that Jesus "answered". By answering, it means Jesus was specifically directing His reply to their immediately asked prior question (v28) - because that question, was the only question asked, and therefore, could not pertain to anything before that. Basically, it was question asked, question answered. However, Jesus did use it as an opportunity for Him to demonstrate characteristics of faith - that it is God's work, and He that must give it.
So, to consider His reply as being a backwards reference in some way to something else, is not supported by what is in v29, and would therefore be an incorrect interpretation of the verse, I believe.

You are insisting on extracting verses 28 and 29 from from their context to avoid admitting that they allow for a different meaning from the one you want to read into them.
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (touto) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God not of works, lest/that not any man should boast.

Here the neuter "that" (touto) refers back to the clause "you are saved by grace through faith" as being God's gift, followed by the reason, "so that no man should boast."

John 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, that (touto) is the work of God, so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Here touto refers back to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, followed by the reason, "so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Perfectly reasonable exegesis.

Nevertheless, you are free to believe as you wish.

 

[rogerg]

Spiritual Israel/Jacob is the elect of God. Spiritual Israel/Jacob in Jer 2:4 turned away from God by their disobedience, except for the remnant of spiritual Israel/Jacob that God took from the midst of spiritual Israel/Jacob, (Zeph 3:11-14).

Sorry ForestGreenCook, I'm working through my reply to you but there's quite a bit to think through. I'll try to have it for you sometime tomorrow if I can.

Roger

 

[Magenta]

Without Christ's faith, that is: His faith alone pleased the Father. By His
faith, we believe, and because of that belief, we earnestly seek Him.

When does heart circumcision enter into it?

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Kroogz]

When does heart circumcision enter into it?

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Love,love and love the Horses sis!

 

[7thMoon]

You are insisting on extracting verses 28 and 29 from from their context to avoid admitting that they allow for a different meaning from the one you want to read into them.
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (touto) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God not of works, lest/that not any man should boast.

Here the neuter "that" (touto) refers back to the clause "you are saved by grace through faith" as being God's gift, followed by the reason, "so that no man should boast."

John 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, that (touto) is the work of God, so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Here touto refers back to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, followed by the reason, "so that (hina) ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Perfectly reasonable exegesis.

Nevertheless, you are free to believe as you wish.

What translation? I notice the gift is salvation or rescue, but touto is neuter and connects to the salvation participle and but not the clause.

Here the neuter "that" (touto) refers back to the clause "you are saved by grace through faith" as being God's gift, followed by the reason, "so that no man should boast."

 

[7thMoon]

@PaulThomson You seem to understand the neuter well. I am just beginning to study the dual-case neuter, but nobody thinks it to be special.

 

[7thMoon]

1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν
Who which desires all the mortals to have been saving, and into the notices of the truth so as to come.

Only one surprise with the examination of the Greek. The infinitive is a past tense and aorist.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

Man this will make all the calvinsts upset!

They think God does NOT want all people to be saved and He actually created some people for no other reason that to send them to hell!

This is the L in their tulip flowery thingy bob they call Limited Atonement:


These scripture references show that limited atonement is not biblical at all.

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.