What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

[7thMoon]

The aorist infinitive indicates the beginning of something not yet happening. The present infinitive indicates the continuance of something already happening.

So, ."..who is willing all men to start being saved and to start coming to the truth."

Perhaps, I should summarize, he problem I have is the infinitive there is aorist past tense and passive voice. I didn't God is desiring in my pass at it. The English aux verb communicating continuing action is needed.

 

[Kroogz]

It seems to me they are asking about what works God is requiring of them, not what works God is supposed to do.
It seems to me that Jesus is saying, "What I just told you. That you labour not for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man shall give to you - that is the work that God requires of you."

Thank you sir.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The every man are those that are among those in verse 1 that he calls "brethren" telling them to "not be conformed to this world, God has given "THE" (same) measure of faith, which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22) given to indwell those who have been born again.

 

[7thMoon]

The aorist infinitive and imperative and subjunctive, as I understand it, refer to actions regarded without implying or denying a sense of duration. That's why I said might begin to believe and might begin to be saved. These expressions neither imply nor deny that the conditional actions have duration.

"The difference between the present and aorist subjunctive is one of aspect rather than of time. In sentences looking forward to the future such as "I am afraid it may happen", the aorist describes single events, whereas the present subjunctive primarily refers to situations or habitually repeated events. In sentences describing repeated events at an indefinite time such as "whenever he has finished, he sits down", the aorist refers to events which, though repeated, precede the time of the main verb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_(Ancient_Greek)#:~:text=The difference between the present,situations or habitually repeated events.

While I agree about the subjunctive mood, I must contradict your view of the aorist. The present is continuous and needs an English word 'is'. The aorists whether perfect or imperfect need to be communicated as though they are noncontinuous events. It is the past and present tenses that communicate continuous and completed events respectively.

 

[rogerg]

I posted in my previous post a text (Eph.2:8) with a similar structure to John 6:29, only the consequential clause subjunctive is negative and so is introduced by mE, i.e. "lest/that not". This or that are both correct, but i think "that" makes the referent clearer than "this". when translating into English here, because like in Eph 2:8, it is referring back not forwards, and we more naturally use "that" to refer backwards and "this" to refer forwards in English.

Compare, "Dogs are too much work to look after as pets; that's what I think anyway,. And,
"Dogs are too much work to look after as pets; this is what I think anyway."
Which sounds more natural?

Also, that you believe is an aorist active subjunctive, pisteusEte, so it should be translated as a modal, not in the indicative, i.e.
"That is the work of God, so that you might start believing into the one whom that one sent."
touto estin to ergov tou theou hina pisteusEte eis hos apesteilen ekeinos.

I did beginner Greek at nights in a Bible college about 40 years ago and have self studied since then.

I guess the answer is yes - that you believe your interpretation superior.
So then, just for the sake of discussion and learning, if it's not too much trouble, when convenient, please rewrite the John 6:27 - 30, so as to comprehensively reflect your point of view regarding what God had actually intended to communicate, and thereby, we can clearly see, compare, contrast, and evaluate its logic against what currently exists - thanks. But it should also be able to harmonize with other scripture too. I've already kinda tried to do that but wasn't able to have it come out making sense - my fault - I must have missed or misunderstood something.

 

[Kroogz]

The "us"in Titus 2:12, and "the all men" in verse 11 are pertaining to The members of the churches in Crete. Paul left Titus in Crete to set in order the things that are wanting, and to ordain elders in the churches in every city (Titus 1:5).

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

John 1:9
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

Luke 3:6
6 And all flesh will see the salvation of God.’ ”

Psalm 67:2
2 That Your way may be known on the earth,
Your salvation among all nations.

Psalm 98:2
2 The Lord has made known His salvation;
He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.

Psalm 98:3
3 He has remembered His lovingkindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Isaiah 45:22
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 52:10
10 The Lord has bared His holy arm
In the sight of all the nations,
That all the ends of the earth may see
The salvation of our God.

Eze 18:23
“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Acts 16:31.

 

[PaulThomson]

Perhaps, I should summarize, he problem I have is the infinitive there is aorist past tense and passive voice. I didn't God is desiring in my pass at it. The English aux verb communicating continuing action is needed.

Are we discussing Eph 2:8, or John 6, or something else?
Really, it is aorist aspect, passive voice. Koine Greek verbs mostly describe aspect more than tense. The aorist sees the action as a single event. It does not convey whether the action was momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. All we know is that it happens at some time. If it happens at some time, it must at least begin. Saying an action began, does not indicate whether it is momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. That's why I used "to begin to" for the aorist subjunctives in John 6:28-29.

 

[rogerg]

Spiritual Israel/Jacob is the elect of God. Spiritual Israel/Jacob in Jer 2:4 turned away from God by their disobedience, except for the remnant of spiritual Israel/Jacob that God took from the midst of spiritual Israel/Jacob, (Zeph 3:11-14).

Sorry, ForestGreenCook, I know I said I would try to reply to your questions today, but I just don't seem to be
able to muster the same mental energy that I once was able to. Not that I have all of the answers, but I'd like to try make it as complete
as I can, given that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. So, I'll try again for tomorrow.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

The every man are those that are among those in verse 1 that he calls "brethren" telling them to "not be conformed to this world, God has given "THE" (same) measure of faith, which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22) given to indwell those who have been born again.

Titus 2:11
the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Man is without excuse!

 

[PaulThomson]

While I agree about the subjunctive mood, I must contradict your view of the aorist. The present is continuous and needs an English word 'is'. The aorists whether perfect or imperfect need to be communicated as though they are noncontinuous events. It is the past and present tenses that communicate continuous and completed events respectively.

Really, it is aorist aspect, passive voice. Koine Greek verbs mostly describe aspect more than tense. The aorist sees the action as a single event. It does not convey whether the action was momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. All we know is that it happens at some time. If it happens at some time, it must at least begin. Saying an action began, does not indicate whether it is momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. That's why I used "to begin to" for the aorist subjunctives in John 6:28-29.

REPLY

 

[7thMoon]

Are we discussing Eph 2:8, or John 6, or something else?
Really, it is aorist aspect, passive voice. Koine Greek verbs mostly describe aspect more than tense. The aorist sees the action as a single event. It does not convey whether the action was momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. All we know is that it happens at some time. If it happens at some time, it must at least begin. Saying an action began, does not indicate whether it is momentary, repetitive, continuous or still continuing. That's why I used "to begin to" for the aorist subjunctives in John 6:28-29.

My personal discovery about the aorist aspect is that there are 2 easily identifiable tenses for it. The 1st Aorist is a past; hence it is first. The 2nd Aorist seems to be a present tense; hence it happens 2nd and later. It might be the same as the imperfect indicative.

The first aorist is was not necessarily a completed action and conveys happening at some historic point. The English auxiliary verb 'was' with gerund conveys the past action complete or not. The 2nd Aorist conveys as though it were a simple present, but again without proven continuous action. The English simple present tense with[out] auxiliary verb implies unknown continuation.

There may be a future tense with aorist aspect, but I don't enough to speculate on what it maybe if it exists, or why it would be used.

Cheers.

 

[7thMoon]

That's why I used "to begin to" for the aorist subjunctives in John 6:28-29.

Evidently admitedly, I don't believe this works well.

 

[PaulThomson]

I guess the answer is yes - that you believe your interpretation superior.
So then, just for the sake of discussion and learning, if it's not too much trouble, when convenient, please rewrite the John 6:27 - 30, so as to comprehensively reflect your point of view regarding what God had actually intended to communicate, and thereby, we can clearly see, compare, contrast, and evaluate its logic against what currently exists - thanks. But it should also be able to harmonize with other scripture too. I've already kinda tried to do that but wasn't able to have it come out making sense - my fault - I must have missed or misunderstood something.

Let me first say this:
hina means "that" in the sense of "in order that" and answers "with what intention", such as, "I went to the fair in order that (hina) I might sell my Honda."
hoti means that in the sense of completing a dependent clause, such as, "I told him that (hoti) I was sick. "
hoti can also answer "for what cause?" such as, I was sick because (hoti) I ate bad shellfish."

John 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly I am saying to you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the miracles I did, but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not keep on making an effort/stop making the effort (mE ergazestE: present middle imperative) for the perishing (ho apollumenEn: present middle participle) food, but for the food enduring (menousan: present active participle) into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (dosei: future active indicative) to you. For God the Father, confirms (esphragisev: aorist Active indicative) Him. [as the truth-bringer]”

28 Then they said to him, “What should we be doing (poioumen: present active indicative) in order that (hina) we may keep on working (Present middle subjunctive) God's works?”

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

30 They said therefore to Him, “What miracle then are you doing (poieis: present active infinitive) in order that (hina) we may start seeing (idOmen: aorist active subjunctive) and start believing (pisteusOmen: aorist active subjunctive) you? What are you making an effort towards (ergazEi: present middle indicative)? 31 Our fathers ate (ephagon: aorist active indicative) the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave (edOken: aorist active indicative) them bread from heaven to start eating (Phagein: aorist active infinitive).”

32 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the [bread] coming down (ho katabainOn: present active participle) from heaven and giving (didous: present active participle) life to the world.”

34 “ Therefore they said to Him, Sir, always give us this bread.”

35 But Jesus said to them, “I am the living bread (ho artos ho zOE). The one keeping on coming (ho erchomenos: present middle participle) to me should no way start hungering (ou mE peinasE: aorist active subjuctive) , and the one keeping on believing (ho pisteuOn: present active participle) into me should no way start thirsting (ou mE dipsEsE: aorist active subjunctive).However, 36 But I said to you that (hoti) you have seen (e)rakate: perfect active indictive) me and are not believing (pisteuete: present active indicative).

NOTE _

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

It does not say,
29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, that (hoti) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

The work of God Jesus is referring to here is NOT that thy might start believing. The work of God is to be done in order that they might start believing in the one the Father sealed/confirmed by miracles.

 

[Kroogz]

Let me first say this:
hina means "that" in the sense of "in order that" and answers "with what intention", such as, "I went to the fair in order that (hina) I might sell my Honda."
hoti means that in the sense of completing a dependent clause, such as, "I told him that (hoti) I was sick. "
hoti can also answer "for what cause?" such as, I was sick because (hoti) I ate bad shellfish."

John 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly I am saying to you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the miracles I did, but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not keep on making an effort/stop making the effort (mE ergazestE: present middle imperative) for the perishing (ho apollumenEn: present middle participle) food, but for the food enduring (menousan: present active participle) into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (dosei: future active indicative) to you. For God the Father, confirms (esphragisev: aorist Active indicative) Him. [as the truth-bringer]”

28 Then they said to him, “What should we be doing (poioumen: present active indicative) in order that (hina) we may keep on working (Present middle subjunctive) God's works?”

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

30 They said therefore to Him, “What miracle then are you doing (poieis: present active infinitive) in order that (hina) we may start seeing (idOmen: aorist active subjunctive) and start believing (pisteusOmen: aorist active subjunctive) you? What are you making an effort towards (ergazEi: present middle indicative)? 31 Our fathers ate (ephagon: aorist active indicative) the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave (edOken: aorist active indicative) them bread from heaven to start eating (Phagein: aorist active infinitive).”

32 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the [bread] coming down (ho katabainOn: present active participle) from heaven and giving (didous: present active participle) life to the world.”

34 “ Therefore they said to Him, Sir, always give us this bread.”

35 But Jesus said to them, “I am the living bread (ho artos ho zOE). The one keeping on coming (ho erchomenos: present middle participle) to me should no way start hungering (ou mE peinasE: aorist active subjuctive) , and the one keeping on believing (ho pisteuOn: present active participle) into me should no way start thirsting (ou mE dipsEsE: aorist active subjunctive).However, 36 But I said to you that (hoti) you have seen (e)rakate: perfect active indictive) me and are not believing (pisteuete: present active indicative).

NOTE _

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

It does not say,
29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, that (hoti) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

The work of God Jesus is referring to here is NOT that thy might start believing. The work of God is to be done in order that they might start believing in the one the Father sealed/confirmed by miracles.

And that pesky Aorist active subjunctive of "believing." The subject is doing the believing at a point in time........And maybe they will and maybe they won't. If we are being completely objective and un-biased, this puts the nail in the coffin of 'elected to salvation or elected to damnation.'

 

[Adstar]

He doesn't desire all people to be saved - if He did, they would become so.

This is denial of scripture.. Typical calvinist denial of scripture..

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

[selahsays]

This is denial of scripture.. Typical calvinist denial of scripture..

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Thank you.

 

[rogerg]

Let me first say this:
hina means "that" in the sense of "in order that" and answers "with what intention", such as, "I went to the fair in order that (hina) I might sell my Honda."
hoti means that in the sense of completing a dependent clause, such as, "I told him that (hoti) I was sick. "
hoti can also answer "for what cause?" such as, I was sick because (hoti) I ate bad shellfish."

John 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly I am saying to you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the miracles I did, but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not keep on making an effort/stop making the effort (mE ergazestE: present middle imperative) for the perishing (ho apollumenEn: present middle participle) food, but for the food enduring (menousan: present active participle) into eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (dosei: future active indicative) to you. For God the Father, confirms (esphragisev: aorist Active indicative) Him. [as the truth-bringer]”

28 Then they said to him, “What should we be doing (poioumen: present active indicative) in order that (hina) we may keep on working (Present middle subjunctive) God's works?”

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

30 They said therefore to Him, “What miracle then are you doing (poieis: present active infinitive) in order that (hina) we may start seeing (idOmen: aorist active subjunctive) and start believing (pisteusOmen: aorist active subjunctive) you? What are you making an effort towards (ergazEi: present middle indicative)? 31 Our fathers ate (ephagon: aorist active indicative) the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave (edOken: aorist active indicative) them bread from heaven to start eating (Phagein: aorist active infinitive).”

32 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the [bread] coming down (ho katabainOn: present active participle) from heaven and giving (didous: present active participle) life to the world.”

34 “ Therefore they said to Him, Sir, always give us this bread.”

35 But Jesus said to them, “I am the living bread (ho artos ho zOE). The one keeping on coming (ho erchomenos: present middle participle) to me should no way start hungering (ou mE peinasE: aorist active subjuctive) , and the one keeping on believing (ho pisteuOn: present active participle) into me should no way start thirsting (ou mE dipsEsE: aorist active subjunctive).However, 36 But I said to you that (hoti) you have seen (e)rakate: perfect active indictive) me and are not believing (pisteuete: present active indicative).

NOTE _

29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, in order that (hina) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

It does not say,
29 Jesus answered and said, “That (touto) is (esti) the work of God, that (hoti) you might start believing (pisteusEta: aorist active subjunctive) into the one whom (hos) that one (ekeinos; nominative sg. m. i.e. God the Father) sent.”

The work of God Jesus is referring to here is NOT that thy might start believing. The work of God is to be done in order that they might start believing in the one the Father sealed/confirmed by miracles.

Thanks for providing this. I will mull it over.

 

[rogerg]

This is denial of scripture.. Typical calvinist denial of scripture..

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Think you need to look at whom the "us-ward" are who he was addressing. In chapter 1, Peter does so, and it doesn't include everyone. I think he makes it known in other places in the book too, but I can't recall right now where they are. When I get my mojo up, I'll try to find it (them).

[2Pe 1:1, 3 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: ...
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[Adstar]

Think you need to look at whom the "us-ward" are who he was addressing. In chapter 1, Peter does so, and it doesn't include everyone. I think he makes it known in other places in the book too, but I can't recall right now where they are. When I get my mojo up, I'll try to find it (them).

[2Pe 1:1, 3 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: ...
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Yes i have had this calvinist reponse before.. The sad thing about calvinisim is that they find ways to conform scripture to their T.U.L.I.P doctrines..

"""us-ward""" If the calvinist interpretation of Usward is that Peter was only talking to and about the saved.. Then Peter would not have use the second discriptor of::

""but that all should come to repentance""

Clearly Peter was not talking about a limited group of the saved.. Because the saved have Already come to repentance.. So Peters Us-ward is refering to the entire human race..

 

[7thMoon]

And that pesky Aorist active subjunctive of "believing." The subject is doing the believing at a point in time........And maybe they will and maybe they won't. If we are being completely objective and un-biased, this puts the nail in the coffin of 'elected to salvation or elected to damnation.'

Using a participle for the aorist is not a good rendering, but the subject has to trust/believe. James White is not as much a simpleton as it might look on the matter. His predestination belief is about omniscience, but he loves PSA much more. You don't really have the moral ability to trust/believe God, especially if you are a unitarian.