I think I see what you mean. It is possible through the Holy Spirit to be able to do this!
Where does the justification for The New Testament doers of the law in Romans 2:13 originate from?
- Thread starter HumbleBee
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I think I see what you mean. It is possible through the Holy Spirit to be able to do this!
You entirely miss the point. Yes, everyone who obeys the law will be justified. Good luck with that. It is plain from scripture that no one but Jesus ever kept the law. If you are trusting in your own obedience, you are dead in your trespass and sin still.
Who's glad they are not like that publican? you know, the one that went home justified.... 
The Mosaic Law has 613 commandments, that is sensible. Even when the first law was given to given to Moses, there was not a single person who was required to by every single law, as you note some were for women, so not even Jesus obeyed those laws, so there is nothing wrong with not obeying a lot that doesn't have its condition men. Likewise, the Israelites were given a number laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land...", so there is nothing wrong with not following a law that can't currently be followed. Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so there is nothing wrong with not following laws in regard to temple practice when there is no temple to in which to practice them and there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that those eternal laws have ended. In 2 Chronicles 30:15-20, Hezekiah prayed for God to pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God even though they were not according to the sanctuary rules of cleanness and God heard his prayer and healed the people.
Following Christ is not just for Jews or Gentiles, so Jews can be Christians too and the truth of what I've said is not based on whether or not I happen to be a Jew, so that is illogical. Christ is a Jew who spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the God's law by word and by example, so Gentile can look at what he taught and decided whether or not to follow him, but Gentiles can't follow him by refusing to follow what he taught.
In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So according to this passage, which one of us is choose life life and a blessing and which one is choosing death and a curse? Furthermore, Romans 10:5-8 reference Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim, so is it the word of faith that you proclaim or is it the word of faith that you deny? While only Jesus kept God's law perfectly, there are many examples in Scripture of people who kept God's law, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-8, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so obedience to God's law is the way to trust in God, not in ourselves, and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust God, but not His instructions.
Who's glad they are not like that publican? you know, the one that went home justified....
Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees and he never criticized them for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized them as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to God's law, but rather he was calling them to a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that was not in accordance with its weightier matters. Nowhere did Jesus say that the Mosaic Law was not the true law of God. Everything that Jesus taught in Matthew 5 was rooted in the OT, so he was not teaching anything that was brand new.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. -Galatians 3:11
Anyone claiming to be a doer of the law, I wouldn't believe no matter how many times they claim it. They are not justified in the sight of God.
14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Anyone claiming to be a doer of the law, I wouldn't believe no matter how many times they claim it. They are not justified in the sight of God.
14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
If there ever was anyone that was a doer of the law, the verse would be as precise as the word always is, and read something like this, "for the doers of the law were justified." However, it reads, "will be..." and yet, no one has been to date.
I really think you need to mention that this can be done with the help of the Holy Spirit. It's also in the same chapter that you're quoting from:
Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Just to say we must be doers sounds so discouraging, but if people are informed that they don't need to do all that by themselves and that they have the Holy Spirit to cause and enable them to do so, it's a lot easier to accept it.
The Holy Spirit is not going to help anyone who is trying to be saved/justified by the law. Take it from this fella:I really think you need to mention that this can be done with the help of the Holy Spirit. It's also in the same chapter that you're quoting from:
Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Just to say we must be doers sounds so discouraging, but if people are informed that they don't need to do all that by themselves and that they have the Holy Spirit to cause and enable them to do so, it's a lot easier to accept it.
Philippians 3:4-7 (NASB)
4 although I myself could boast as having confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he is confident in the flesh, I have more reason: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7 But whatever things were gain to me, these things I have counted as loss because of Christ.
What are you talking about? Anyone who abides in God can't help but obey Him because that's what the Holy Spirit causes a person to do. Obeying God by the Holy Spirit isn't about trying to get saved/justified by the law. It's just what naturally happens when a person abides in Him.
What a strange thing for you say....
And it's a smorgasbord of subjective do's and don'ts. Each and every individual has certain laws that are ok not to do or follow because______________ . There is no objective truth. Each individual has their own subjective idea of what is permissible and what is not. And then each has their own justification of why or why not. No objective truth, no objective rules. Each individual makes up their own rules.
I only messed up_____________. So I'm good.
Well, I followed this many_____________. So I'm good.
Well, my surroundings and where I live wouldn't allow me to do_____________. So I'm good.
This ____________ really doesn't pertain to me. So I'm good.
We are talking eternal life in the balance. Eternal life. We have nothing to lose by putting our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. Get saved, and then go back to the law and all it's burdens. At least we are saved.
Well, talk to humblebee. He won't explain himself. He's on repeat. He is giving every indication that he is trying to be justified by the law.What are you talking about? Anyone who abides in God can't help but obey Him because that's what the Holy Spirit causes a person to do. Obeying God by the Holy Spirit isn't about trying to get saved/justified by the law. It's just what naturally happens when a person abides in Him.
What a strange thing for you say....
The Holy Spirit is not going to help him in that quest.
The verse, Romans 2:13, is repeatedly beeing used as proof text that someone is a doer of the law and so then is justified by the law has totally missed the implied condition of justification by the law, doing and not just hearing the law. That is, If anyone meets that condition, that is a doer, then he will be justified.
Yet, Galatians 2:16 says, "...by the works of the law no one will be justified," So then the conclusion is that no one has, does, nor likely will meet that condition to be a "doer of the law."
And Romans 3:20 confirms this, "20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
Seems to me that it's better to be a "seer of the law" for what it 'shows' us, in God's sight. And then one might actually also see just how gracious God actually was is and will be.